Transcript: A - Z of Tech: Episode 21: S for Space

Hello and welcome to this episode of the A to Z of Tech podcast. 

Somehow we have made it all the way through the alphabet to S, which means that today we will be looking at the topic of Space, which has been making the headlines recently with space tourism, space travel, space exploration, all beginning to capture the public imagination. 

Once again, I'm your host Louise, and I'm delighted to say that today for this episode, we're joined by two brilliant guests. On the line we have Andrew Bacon, who is the co-founder and CTO of a company called Space Forge, which is a startup specializing in developing small satellites. Alongside me in the studio, we have Dinesh Patel. He was an aerospace engineer with 15 years experience in the industry and who is now the Space Lead here at PwC UK. Thank you both so much for joining us on the podcast. 

And so Andrew, if I might turn to you first, if that's okay. I'd be really interested in hearing a little bit about your own background and what it was that originally drew your interest in space. 

Thank you. Yes, my name is Andrew Bacon. As you said, the Chief Technology Officer of a startup company called Space Force limited. I've been in the space industry for 11 years now. I've worked for very small companies, medium-sized companies, very large companies as well. So I've sort of seen the full spectrum of what can be done in the space industry. In my past, I've worked on future Moon and Mars landing programs and I spent a lot of time working in advanced concepts teams. 

Why did I get into the space industry? I mean, the usual answer is - space is cool. It cannot be denied. And I saw that as an electronic engineer as well. Space has always been one of my major passions. And when I first started out when I was a student, I did not realize that the UK even had a space industry. I did not know it was an option. And I was very lucky to have been involved in working with student groups and entering competitions, which got me to go to Space conferences in the UK where I realized suddenly there's this, actually, there are dozens and well now there are hundreds of space companies in the UK. 

So it really is a real career choice that you can take. So that's kind of my path. 

Thank you Andrew. I think all of us agree that space is cool, which is exactly why we're here talking about it today. So on a slightly irreverent question maybe to start us off with. There seems to be a bit of a kind of a space race developing between a variety of billionaires. So if you had to choose a billionaire to go into space with, which billionaire would you choose? 

Yeah, that's a great question. So, what are the options we got for getting into space? As a person? Say you've got Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic, you've got Jeff Bezos with his suborbital rockets, the New Shepherd. And then you've also got Elon with Falcon nine. But personally, if you were to ask me which one of those with I'd be happy to fly on. It will be none of those. I will pick the Russian Soyuz rocket because that is the one that basically as a rocket design has not changed since the late sixties. They don't really change the way it's made. It’s extremely reliable. It's been the main way that people have been getting into space for the last 40 years, certainly since the Space Shuttle retired. So if I was to choose one, I would definitely choose that one. 

Nice. And you’d get to visit the Kazakh step as well at the same time, which would be pretty cool. 

So moving on, to a slightly more sensible question then in that case, could you actually tell us a little bit about what Space Forge does and some of the opportunities that you're looking to gain from working in space? 

So Space Forge at our heart, we are a company that is developing satellites that go into space for the purposes of making new materials that you cannot make on Earth. And then we bring those satellites back to reuse them and launch them again, so it's a new market. There's not many people in this market currently. But why do you want to make things in space? So there's three main reasons. Basically, Earth is not a very good place to make things. It's a great place to live. But when you're trying to manufacture high-quality products, there are a lot of problems. First there is gravity. So gravity is a big issue if you're trying to make alloys of different materials. Say if you want to make up a lead, aluminium alloy, don’t ask me why, but if you wanted to, you would melt those two metals, mix them together. But of course the lead will sink to the bottom and the aluminium would sink to the top and you'd have bubbles. And you wouldn't get a very good homogenous alloy. That's one problem. The other problem is contamination. So on earth, atmosphere is great. We have lots of oxygen, which is a fantastic thing for us humans. But when you're trying to melt metals, it's a bit of a pain because when oxygen gets particularly hot, it oxidizes and makes the material more brittle and more likely to crack. And, and then thirdly, extremes of temperature. So on Earth, if you go to the coldest place, you can get maybe minus 40, minus 50. And if you go to the hottest desert, you can get maybe plus 50. So if you want beyond those temperatures, for really high temperatures for melting metals like in a furnace. Or you need to get special materials and special methods like making things that hot, dry and steely, heat away. Maybe you want to get really cold like close to absolute 0. You have to use cryogenics, which can be quite difficult and expensive. But if you go to space, you have a microgravity environment which is fantastic. So the problem I mentioned before goes away. You have free access to an ultra vacuum. So if you go to 500 kilometers altitude, a little bit above the International Space Station, you have what's considered an extremely high vacuum that you'd need multiple stage vacuum pumps to achieve on Earth. And you can get access to very cold temperatures. If you just point out into cold space, you can get close to about 10 degrees above absolute 0. So on Earth, you can't really recreate all the other things. You could have a parabolic flight on a plane that would give you 30 seconds zero gravity, you can have vacuum pumps that will give you a vacuum. And you use cryogenics, give you super cold. And you could maybe have two of those. You can have a cryogenic vacuum pump that's very expensive, or you could maybe put a vacuum pump on a parabolic flight. But getting all three of those is extremely hard. But in space they’re basically there for free. So space is like the perfect factory for making new super materials. And that's what we're developing is a small on cruise autonomous satellite that will go into orbit. Make new alloys, make new electronics, look at new drugs, new pharmaceuticals, carry out research, and then return complete back to the UK, where we can then extract the materials and then launch it again and actually start to move from research and go into production. 

That sounds incredible. So how far along are you in the process of building or a setting or a satellite into space to take advantage of these properties? 

So where are we? So we are developing our core technologies. We're prototyping the manufacturing payloads we want to fly. We are testing our re-entry technologies and we're doing experiments where we're testing our landing system. So we're dropping it from drones and balloons to see how we can do the soft landing. And we're very pleased to announce that recently we had an announcement from the European Space Agency that they were providing funding for our very first mission, which we expect to be taking off late next year. 

Incredible, sounds like really exciting times at Space Forge. So if I can ask maybe a question which brings space back in tomorrow about today. We've been talking about really, really high tech or niche kind of implementation in space and space exploration. How does space actually impact our daily lives? 

Yeah. That's an interesting question. I think if you asked that ten years ago, I think more people would have not really have recognized the impact of space on their daily lives. But I think today people probably have a better idea of what happens. I mean, there's the obvious one which is satellite navigation, gets us to where we need to go. Certainly, I would not be able to navigate around Bristol and without it, it's a lifesaver. And that's the obvious one, but there's the side effects of navigation as well, which is the timing signal, the really accurate sorting signal it produces, which is used in an enormous number of applications, particularly in banks and, and other kinds of systems that require extremely high precision timing.

Brilliant. Thank you, Andrew. Dinesh, I'll bring you into the conversation at this point. So could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be interested in space. 

So in terms of my background, aerospace engineer by trade, I did a Master's in space studies from the International Space University, which was by the way, an amazing experience and I recommend it to anybody. And over the years, like Andrew, I've also worked with companies across Europe and within the UK, both large and small. And most recently, over the last seven to eight years, I've been working within the aerospace and defence sector consulting wise. The last of which has been within PwC. 

Brilliant, really exciting to hear about the International Space University. I went to hear more and more about that at some point. So we heard a little bit from Andrew earlier. He touched on the UK's space economy as it were. And from your perspective of working with a variety of different clients across the industry, what does the UK's space industry look like? 

So the UK space industry is involved in a variety of things. We've actually been involved in lots of the European major programs, from Earth observation to more recently, we were involved quite closely with Galileo, until Brexit. So as a result, we've developed a lot of skill sets and unique skill sets within the UK, both within R&D markets, but also more commercially in terms of broadcasting and creating scientific hardware and robotics for space exploration. 

So when you look at the upstream and downstream environments, which is commonly the language we use, which is building of space, equipment versus internal customers’ use of what's being developed, we are known more globally for our small satellite expertise. And Andrew would probably agree with me that that is the case. We've had companies like Surrey Satellites, which have been at the forefront of developing small satellites for almost 25 years. And on the back of that, we've developed lots of experience and skills within that sector. And more recently, we have started to look at launching small satellites from UK soil. That is something that we're now starting to look at and develop. We've just recently launched new regulations that allow safe space flight from-UK soil, which will support both Richard Branson in terms of his endeavours around Virgin Galactic, but also allow us to launch small payloads from the UK soil. So that gives you an idea of where the market’s going in the UK. 

One of the areas of specialism most recently is around space debris removal. There is a company based around Oxford that is specifically looking at removing the clutter that we have in space at the moment. Given that access to space is becoming cheaper, there are more and more satellites being put into space. So we now need to clean up the mess to make sure that the new things that we launched remain safe and operational. So that's again an area of expertise that we have in the UK. It's quite niche, quite unique, but something that's of high impact, high value, more globally. 

Yeah, sounds like really, really interesting developments going on there. And I believe 2021 has actually seen the publication of the UK's first space strategy. Can you tell us a little bit about what that contains and some of the goals it outlines?

So in terms of the space strategy, it's the first time the UK government is bringing commercial and defence space together. The idea being, if both industries have a common goal, a common target, it allows us to invest money in the right area so that we're getting the right outcomes. Both in terms of benefits to the end-user, but also developing the capabilities and skills that we require within the UK. And to that extent, they've got largely about 10 sets of goals aimed at increasing international partnership. For one, we are still actively involved with the European Space Agency. Despite Brexit, we have had lots of successes as a result of that relationship and we recognize that. So there is a continuous theme around maintaining that relationship and working on large programs within Europe and providing expertise. But we've also started to forge new ones. So we've got the Australia, UK Space bridge. That's an example of us working more closely with our Australian partners around by sector. And we're also looking at creating similar sorts of relationships with the US and other countries. 

We're also starting to put front-and-centre space power. So that's quite a new concept. But we're able to use satellites, which are out in space, and point to the sun. You can have them pointed in that direction, 24x7, and you can transport the energy back to Earth. And so that's a concept that we are looking to capitalize on and develop more maturity around. Similarly, there is intent to do more defence-related activity as well that supports UK interests. Clearly, one of the things Andrew spoke about was how space is used in our daily lives. Clearly an outage or disruption. Around those things would have a huge impact on the UK economy, but to, but our way of life as well. So as a result, the defence strategy, which is due to be released soon on the back of the UK space strategy. We will look at the sorts of programs of work the UK government want to protect that interest of ours. 

Nice, sounds like there's a lot of collaboration going on and looking for opportunities where, where the UK can really build on some of these new capabilities that we have. So you mentioned defence that and - not to get to Star Wars - but are there other threats posed by, by space exploration - are we going to see sort of laser beams shooting out from satellites on cities. I can see Andrew laughing down the line. I don't know if he wants to comment on that. 

Yeah. You don't need to worry about laser beams from space. Not very efficient. But yeah, in defence I mean, there's been a lot of news about the formation of the US Space Force. And that is because the US has acknowledged that but now they're really, really trying to project the strength around how they're going to protect their spaceborne assets like that. MSR warning systems, communication systems, Observation Systems. It is just completely vital to certainly for the US how they fight a war in the future. But also their environmental threats as well, particularly from the sun. So, there have been incidents in the past whereby very large cellular mass ejections and flares have disrupted human life. Particularly there was one event in the 1800s which overloaded the telegraph wires. Now we've been relatively lucky that in the last 150 years or so, we haven't had an event like that. But it is something that people are very concerned about because it really could disrupt, disable and maybe destroy a very large percentage of the satellites we have in orbit, which will be extremely bad news for the reasons we talked about before. Not just from a defence point of view, but also from even being able to navigate, banks being able to do transactions, being able to do effective disaster relief and communicate. So yes, Space Defence. And there's also in addition to that asteroid defence as well. The problem with asteroids is that an event happening like that, like the ones that killed the dinosaurs. Extremely low risk, but very high impact. So when you do your, your severity calculation, yeah, actually comes out quite high. Interestingly, your chances of you being killed by an asteroid is about the same as you being killed by a terrorist attack. Or weirdly about the same as you dying by falling off a merry-go-round. That's what a scientist told me once. So I mean, we're not afraid of merry-go-rounds. We are afraid of terrorists. How afraid should we be of asteroids? But again, the Space Force, but also on the larger part, the UN. I've done a lot of work and there is a plan to deal with asteroids and the like in the future. But yeah, going back to the Star Wars scenario, I mean, there are very clear treaties about deploying of weapons in space. That the big nations that do well in space, including the UK, are signatories to. So everyone has agreed that deploying weapons in space is not a good idea and that nobody should be allowed to do it. So, yeah, you don't need to worry about giant space lasers from orbit. We need to worry about asteroids but you don't personally need to be worried about it. Just know that there are people who are worried of asteroids and are working on it and they'll deal with the problem for you. There's no need to worry about your day-to-day life. 

I mean, I have seen Hollywood films. I'm just really glad they’re simply working on a plan. So if the worst happens, we've got a playbook to run where it's safe and thanks for reassuring us on that. 

So moving away from asteroids and hopefully looking a little bit closer to home. There's been a lot of conversations around the possibility of, for example, a lunar economy or colonizing Mars, for example. Do you think these are realistic probabilities? And if so, what would, what some of the benefits be maybe in a nutshell, Dinesh I'll ask and put you on the spot with that one. 

Okay. That's a very interesting question. It's really front-and-center at the moment. Lots of countries are looking at the prospect of mining. And in terms of treaties at the moment, space is an asset for everyone and accessible to everyone. So as a result, when we start to look at mining, who owns what, what's extracted? So in order to allow people to have some rights, and things. Countries like the US. Interestingly, Luxembourg as well as well, are looking at putting together regulations that allows them to actually mine and, and continue to own the things that they manage to bring back. But from an economic value perspective, the sorts of mining that we're looking at or have been looking at over the past 20 plus years, has been more about bringing back scientific samples. There’s not a large quantity, I think so far today, probably brought back about one ton of material. And those are sort of lunar samples, not necessarily high-value minerals of any form. However, going forward, the reason understanding that like the moon or asteroids, Andrew talked about that could be material of high value that we can use for electronic equipment and help with storage of energy. All of the sorts of things that we're trying to grapple with in our daily lives at this point in time. Being able to access those sorts of materials in large quantities would make this a viable proposition. Because you can see it's daily use in our daily lives. But in the immediate future, the main thing we can see is mining. With the purpose of creating fuel. It allows us to access different parts of space rather than launching from the Moon where the gravity is lower and being able to travel to Mars and other destinations. That's where I see the immediate benefits and impacts. Being able to take large mining equipment from the UK to the moon. Very expensive, very costly. The temperatures are extreme. And Andrew alluded to some of these already in his conversation. It's a very challenging environment, very harmful to human beings to operate in that environment. Whether that's a sustainable proposition at this point, that's uncertain. 

And Andrew, would you agree with that? We're unlikely to see big tanker trucks on the moon at any point in the future? 

Yeah. I would generally agree with Dinesh that things like asteroid exploitation. Some people might say it's controversial. I'd really say it's not controversial at all because I'd much rather, in the future, humans are going and strip mining an asteroid and say, the Amazon rainforest does at least help us move towards a future where we're still maintaining the quality of life that we want and we're still being humans and everything that comes along with it without having to destroy their natural habitat. 

So I think unfortunately we are kind of approaching the end of the time we have, but I will put to you both a final question. What are your personal hopes for space exploration in our, in our lifetimes, what would you like to see being achieved? Dinesh, I'll put that to you first. 

I kind of grew up in the era of watching lots of science fiction. So Star Trek was, I grew up watching that. It's absolutely love it. Stargate, all of that sort of programs. And ultimately, the idea that we were able to overcome such adversity to send people to the moon, bring them back. And we've now lost that capability. For the last 40 years. We have seen advances in science exploration. But it feels like it's about time. We send people back to explore, further reach. It's in the universe, so sending people to Mars or back to the moon. So that's kind of where I would like to see in my lifetime. I would like to see the ordinary person, just like Richard Branson there doing with the suborbital flights, having the opportunity to reach further out into space and have holidays there.

And Andrew the same question to you. What would you like to see happening in space exploration in our lifetimes? 

So many things. How long have we got? On the space tourism thing, I think one of the most effective, it's been talked about a lot with space tourism, is it seen as expensive? Is it an expensive joyride. But actually, it's been said that there's, that doesn't seem to have been an astronauts who's gone into space and has not been fundamentally affected by that experience. Seeing the whole earth underneath them is supposedly an extremely humbling perspective that you get. And so it will be really interesting to see when more and more people are going out there and looking and seeing the Earth and seeing how thin the atmosphere is, how that will be affecting them. And maybe these people will be policy makers and business leaders in the future that might influence their decision. So that's a really important aspect to space tourism. But yeah, fundamentally, my personal opinion, is exploration is great. But ultimately, what are we trying to do with space? And I would love to, my prediction for the next 50 years will be, let's try and move everything we can, all polluting industry into orbit, where A it’s more efficient and B it will be less damaging to earth on the ground. That to me is, is not, is not a pipedream, it actually makes quite a lot of economic sense when you get to the right levels of launch price and everything. And that's one of the ways that we really could help solve the climate crisis. Not the only way, but it really would help. So exploration, but behind exploration should come that wave of utilization of what's out there. 

Brilliant. I think a really nice, positive note to end it on. Andrew, Dinesh, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. And if our audience would like to delve a little bit more on to some of these topics, do you have any resources that you would recommend. Andrew, anything on your side? 

Yeah. So anybody who is interested in getting involved in the space industry, doesn't matter how old you are, I'd really recommend looking at both the UK SED websites, that is UK students for the exploration and development in space. So this is a countrywide wing of a whole global group of people just interested in space and promoting it and understanding it, doing competitions and just meeting up and talking about it. That's a really great resource. But also, if you're really interested in getting a career in the space industry, please checkout and space careers UK. It's a non-profit website which really summarizes all the jobs that are available in the UK and in Europe as well that will be suitable for people getting into the industry. And it's really good. Just go on and see the list of companies that are doing work in space - it’s a really long list. That's why I recommend it. 

Perfect. Thank you, Andrew. And Dinesh, anything on your side? 

I'll kind of leave with more where you want to get latest information. So from a space perspective, my go-to sites tend to be space daily and space news. So if you're ever interested in seeing what sort of things that are happening, but all across the globe within the sector worth looking at those sites. Brilliant. Thank you. And I will also just flag that for if you'd like to hear more about what business can learn from space than you can visit PwC.co.uk/thenewequation where we're exploring vital lessons from the space race, from redefining the possible to the need for accelerated innovation. 

And so Andrew, Dinesh, again, thank you so much. I think that was a really fascinating discussion. I've really enjoyed this episode. Listeners. I hope you've enjoyed it too. And of course, please don't forget to subscribe to the podcast series so you can join us for our next episode as well.