Episode 29: Z for Gen Z (part 2) - transcript

Louise Taggart: Hello, and welcome to part two of our Z episode, Gen Z. For those of you who haven't yet listened to part one, firstly why on earth haven't you, frankly? But in it we covered a variety of topics, including hearing from Gen Z themselves about what characterises their generation, some of the stereotypes around what that means, the tech they use and their perspectives on the world of work. So for part two, we're going to be focusing a little bit more on the accessibility of technology, the role of education, the approach of employees and employers and also how we can support the growth of tech skills more broadly as well. Now, I'm delighted to say for this final episode that I'm joined by four guests in this studio. First, Dr Claire Thorne, who is co-CEO of Tech She Can. Emma Fuentes, who works here at PwC in corporate affairs but who joined as a graduate into the forensic technology team. Salome, who hopefully you will remember from part one of the episode, who is a technology degree apprentice, studying computer science at Leeds and is also working currently here in consulting. And last but not least, somebody who I think we can officially now call a friend of the pod, Robert Freeman, who is a technology journalist and lecturer. So thank you all very much for joining me for this discussion. So, firstly, I'll turn to you Claire. We will absolutely come round to Tech She Can in a moment, but in terms of looking back on part one of this episode, did any key messages resonate with you in particular? 

Claire Thorne: Yes, absolutely. I was listening to it earlier. So there's a few things that I think you said Salome, one was, you know, your dad went to university without a laptop and this notion was mind blowing. I also went to university, my undergrad days, without a laptop, without an email account and I think what it really highlights quite visibly is the pace of change. And there's this huge challenge for the school curriculum, the workplace, the pathways and the number of different pathways into tech roles there are to keep up and to keep pace with the pace of technology. So that was the first thing. The second thing was the importance of role modelling. So my co-CEO who is, you know, employee here at the PwC, Sheridan Ash, always says, you know, the only female in tech role model that she had to look up to was Ada Lovelace and she's dead. So, you know, the importance of relatable living at least but relatable role models that represent you is really key. And then the other thing was, almost bringing it back to first principles, so when we're talking about tech roles is it dev-ops, is it software engineers, is it tech roles across multiple sectors, not just the tech sector. And the same with the entrepreneurship side as well. So what exactly do we mean by tech roles was the other reflection I had. 

Louise Taggart: And that's a great question and at least we're asking it now in the Z episode but yes. And Emma, I'd actually be really interested in getting your perspective as well on episode one. As a Gen Z representative yourself, did you agree with some of the comments that came out in part one or did anything stick out for you in particular? 

Emma Fuentes: Yes, so building on what Claire said, when Salome you mentioned about your dad and how he was talking about Google Maps not existing and just how advanced technology and growing connectivity has altered their everyday lives and what they were used to. I think it was also really interesting as Gen Z, for us it's not that it's made lives more efficient, it's that we've literally just grown up with it. And we don't know anything other than a world where we have easy access to a vast amount of information and that we can communicate and collaborate with people from anywhere in the world. And I think for better or for worse, that's really shaped the way that we've developed as people, especially with the formations of social media. 

Louise Taggart: Absolutely, I do not miss paper street maps at all. I have to say. And then, finally Rob, I might ask you as well a similar question. When you were listening to part one, which I know you have done, did anything strike you in particular given your background and where you work? 

Rob Freeman: Oh yes, lots of things because I made notes as I was going on. It was fascinating to think that even though-, I mean I teach the age group that you're talking about in areas like journalism and bits of technology. And it's one of those things where you think, 'Oh yes, I, sort of, know what's going on in these students heads.' And then you listen to more perspectives and more perspectives and you think, 'I have no idea what's going on in people's heads at all.' It's interesting that everyone's talked about maps. Maps was one of the things that I noted as well because I think at least, and I don't know if it was the people sitting with us today, said they claim to have no map reading skills, was the bit I recognised. And I thought, 'I don't know about that.' And I wondered whether or not this is just us not understand-, it comes back to your point about the terms, what do we mean by this thing. Because, I guarantee if you had a paper map in front of us, you'd be able to read a map. And that's because you are used to Google Maps and online maps and the reason you're able to read a paper map is because, guess what, both of those things are maps. One of them is - the only difference is that one of them has a screen and has all the maps, literally, all the maps on it and it was just interesting the perception there thinking, 'Oh, I don't know how to read a paper map.' I guarantee you do. 

Louise Taggart: Maybe we need to go out and do some orienteering to put that theory to practice. 

Claire Thorne: Honestly, I think Google Maps, out of every app I've got on my phone, it's the single most transformational one. You know, it's completely changed my life, I use it everyday, multiple times a day. And I think as a woman trying to navigate the world it's really helpful and empowering as well. I remember the days of the A to Zs as well. So definitely the most transformational app absolutely. 

Rob Freeman: The other thing I thought was interesting and was great that was talked about was the understanding of the role of privacy, particularly in social media, and I was so pleased that came up. Everyone was aware that this is a big issue that I need to just always be constant in the back of my mind where I'm doing things because there are ramifications. The stuff that's on the internet stays on the internet. 

Louise Taggart: And I have to say, that was one of the stereotypes that I think we broke a little bit. That actually there was an awareness of privacy and data protection that maybe permeated more than Gen Z is given credit for. 

Claire Thorne: Yes, the savviness that came across, absolutely. 

Louise Taggart: Moving on from maps. Claire, I might come back to you and we did actually have one of your colleagues on a previous episode of the Podcast which was K for Kids, but for listeners who maybe aren't familiar with Tech She Can or who are interested in what's evolved in the couple of years since we spoke to Robyn (ph 07.46). Could you tell us a little bit about what Tech She Can does and your own journey into the organisation as well? 

Claire Thorne: Yes of course. So Robyn is now our COO. We are a fully independent charity. So back in 2019 I think it was Robyn spoke to you, we were a charter and we've effectively spun out of PwC now, so they are our founding member, they still second people into us as an organisation but we are a fully independent charity. We gained charitable status in summer of 21. So Sheridan and I job share and we've got 250 member organisations now across around 40 sectors. So the strategic partners include, obviously, PwC, but also Natwest, Google, Unilever, Tesco etc. And we have really grown out our Tech We Can schools programme. So everything we do is free because we're fully funded by our members and to date, since becoming a charity, we have now directly reached with our free resources around 30,000 children, especially girls, across the UK in the school setting. So we are scaling, we're growing the Tech We Can programme but we're also doing a lot more as well later on in the pipeline which wasn't the case back in 2019. So just as an example, apprenticeships we are finding are really great pathways, particularly for women, and not just at the early stage of the pipeline, not just, you know, early entrance, post-college, post-university or post-school. But actually for pivoters and returners and senior leaders later on in the pipeline. 

So at the end of last year we piloted a scheme where we said to our larger corporate members, 'Have you got a surplus levy?' A lot of them have millions of waste levies what we call it. 'Would you like to donate it and redistribute it?' Tech She Can as a charity doesn't see any of that money but within the member base to our SME and our charity organisations, our charity members, and within a couple of weeks we had over £1,000,000 or surplus or waste levy donated from our larger organisations. And that's fully funding around 75 women tech apprentices, so specially repurposed for tech apprentices in organisations like British Science Association, Teach First etc. So, Tech We Can as a schools programme is growing. We've got 400 champions trained, including some from PwC. We're reaching thousands of children literally, and that will always continue to be the heart of what we do, but we're also doing much more now. 

Louise Taggart: Brilliant, it sounds like it's having a massive impact and reach which is obviously one of the most important things. That's a lovely segue speaking of apprenticeships there to Salome, who is one of our tech degree apprentices. I would really love to get your opinion on being an apprentice. Have you found that the combination of university study and exposure to the workplace at the same time has prepared you for the world of work, do you think? 

Salome Tirado Okeze: Yes, I think one thing it has given me is exposure because when I was younger, I had no idea what computer science was, where it could lead me. I thought it was such a niche thing that only a few people that liked coding knew about. I didn't know that it was like a whole career field. I remember when I first heard of the apprenticeship scheme, I was still a bit unsure because I was like, 'I want to do engineering, I want to do computer science, I want to do science, science. I don't want to go to business.' Then I did a work experience and I was like, 'Wow, this is the best of both worlds. I can still have that, like, technology experience, but I can also look at the business side,' and being able to work, be a uni student and also learn at university all the things I wanted to learn, but get that corporate experience has just been great, and fully funded as well. I can't see doing it any other way, honestly. 

Louise Taggart: Brilliant. That was a very resounding success by the sounds of things, then. Emma, I'll turn to you as well then. So you joined as a graduate, so a slightly different pathway, and you're from a STEM background, so as a Gen Z, I would love to get your opinion on your exposure into the world of work, and the role of technology in that as well. 

Emma Fuentes: Yes, so I joined in 2019 having just graduated. I did a maths degree. For me, it was a very interesting transition to go from studying maths to suddenly working and not necessarily using everything I'd learnt in my maths degree per se, but applying the skills that I'd learnt into the world of work. I think it really helped the fact that I did a placement year as well, And it's what you were saying Salome of having that exposure to the business and how you can apply your skills to everyday work, especially in technology where I was using my problem solving skills, my analytical skills, critical thinking, all this stuff that I'd learnt in my degree to the world of work I think was really useful to prepare me to know what to expect from the future. 

Salome Tirado Okeze: I agree, because one of the reasons I studied computer science was because I loved learning about computers, but I was like, 'So what would I be doing? Would I be making computers? Would I be just coding? What would I do?' Until I found out through the work experience that you do so much more with what you learn, rather than the actual things you learn. Like with way more, like the skills you learn as well. 

Claire Thorne: I think computer science and IT is such a misnomer. You know, to a school pupil, a college learner, a university undergrad, I think it's really doing it a disservice and it doesn't feel updated in any way. 

Louise Taggart: Then in terms of role models, so Claire, you mentioned earlier that when you were thinking about studying STEM there was a complete dearth of relevant, in particular female role models for you to look to. Emma and Salome, when you were at a similar point in time thinking about going on to further education or what kind of work you wanted to go into, did you find you had women in technology to look to as role models? 

Emma Fuentes: For me, it was really interesting for me, because my whole life I'd loved maths, and it was my favourite subject consistently, but I mean growing up, I never considered it as a career choice. I think the reason for this was because I had this ingrained bias that it's the discipline that was best suited for boys and it was just something that I liked, and I happened to have to study at school. But then I enjoyed it so much that I continued studying it, even when originally when I applied for university, I applied for a humanities based subject, and I kept maths going just because I enjoyed it that much. That's when my female maths teachers spoke to me and they were like, 'Why are you giving it up? Why are you going to university to study something that's not your passion and your favourite subject?' It was people like that that took interest in my career, and showed me what it was actually like for them, their experience, where they ended up working, what challenges they faced, kind of like already understanding what I was walking into. I think I'd say they were my key role models more than, you know, a film where there's a female mathematician which happens once every so often anyway, yes. 

Claire Thorne: It kills me inside when I hear you say that, you know, through no fault of your own, it was the way in which society is constructed, that you didn't see maths as a route for you as a girl or a woman. 

Louise Taggart: Does that resonate with you, Salome? Did you feel that computer science wasn't necessarily for girls? 

Salome Tirado Okeze: It was only when I got to college and our college tutor walked in, and she was a woman, and she had been in the field for years. She had been like at least 50 years studying computer science, she studied it at uni. I was like, 'Wait, this existed? I thought it was a new thing that only us, that we knew about it, that we were just given a go.' I didn't know that it was a diverse, as I said before, a diverse career field that people have been studying for years. Even now when I see like older people the same age as my mum that studied computer science that are women, I was like, 'Wow, you knew about it back then?' 

Rob Freeman: There's a fascinating study from some years ago, but it speaks exactly to that thing about gender stereotypes in technology. I'm obviously in communications technology primarily, but the study looked back and it said, 'Why is it that we have women who sit there and somehow go, 'Well, tech isn't for me,' and you look back generationally.' This study came to the conclusion that when their parents were growing up, let's say in the early to mid-'80s, there were loads of new computer stuff coming in. It was the beginning of computer games that had massive traction and the cost had got low enough that there were, sort of, presents. Go on YouTube, type in '80s computer game ads. What you will see is all these whizz bang ads of ‘buy this new games console’. I don't think they called them that, but you know, it was a computer games thing and you plugged it into your television, but everyone on there is a boy child. They were games and gadgets that were marketed for dads to buy for their sons. 

Claire Thorne: Game boy. Game girl came a lot later. 

Rob Freeman: Those attitudes, they are generational. They go 25-year cycles where you've got-, it's interesting, there must be exactly a generation I think, 20, 25 years between I think Emma, Salome and me, but my parents were exactly the same. 'Go and get a degree. No, that thing you want to do, no. Degree.' It takes a long time to get out of these cycles. 

Claire Thorne: With Tech She Can, what we try and do is reach children and inspire them about potential pathways into tech roles, connecting their passions. It might not necessarily be in STEM, they might not necessarily know really what STEM is or be good at it, but connecting their passions with potential tech roles, and really feature predominantly women and diverse role models. I think the thing that came out of the piece of research that PwC commissioned that started off Tech She Can, so back in 2017, '18, was that women and girls want to work in careers that are creative, and they want to work in careers that are doing tech for good, societal good. There's a disconnect because they don't necessarily link that to a role in technology. So yes, we're trying to tackle those stereotypes really early on. Parents are a big part of that, but working directly with the children before the pre-GCSE options decision point and also trying to link the fact that STEM roles and tech careers are inherently creative and you can follow your passion. Any pathway can lead into a tech role whether it's a love of languages or the arts, whatever it is. 

Louise Taggart: Are you finding that having those conversations earlier on are beginning to shape the way that young people and obviously we're talking specifically there about girls and women, how they look at pathways into technology or STEM-related roles, and are we beginning to see a shift there? 

Claire Thorne: There's a lovely anecdote where Becky Patel who is from L&D here in PwC and seconded into Tech She Can, she leads our Tech We Can programme, and she was delivering some of our Tech We Can content to I think a group of eight-year-olds, and at the start of the session, she was asking them to draw what they think somebody working in the tech sector or a tech role looked like. This young girl, she drew a white, middle-aged man. He was overweight, he was in a basement, he had five screens, he was hacking into the Pentagon. Like, where does this idea come from? This isn't something that, you know, she's just conjured up. This is a result of stereotypes that have been ingrained to get her to that point. She's seen it somewhere, she's heard it somewhere. Then after one session with Becky and the team, they then repeated the exercise, and you know, she drew herself. She drew herself with her natural hair, with a cape. She was working in Facebook. She had connected her love of languages, she was really good at English, with a potential tech role. So yes, that's the sort of impact we're absolutely seeing. 

Louise Taggart: So it's about making it relatable then? That people can see themselves reflected in the potential career opportunities and pathways. 

Rob Freeman: How we've, kind of, stuck in this, 'This is the route from primary school to secondary school, and possibly then to tertiary education.' Again, 25 years ago, I was the person stepping off the escalator at secondary school and going, 'Oh, what do I do now? Oh, I suppose I should go to university.' I had no visibility of that route, other than, 'Oh, I'm still learning stuff.' 

Claire Thorne: I think one of the things that I reflected on from part one, I don't know if you said it, but I was thinking, 'Oh,' it was this lightbulb moment, is you know, Gen Z'ers, I think there's going to be a default, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but a, sort of, expectation that actually a portfolio career is the only career and we think back to our parents' generation, and my dad was in the same role for 40 years. It was just what was done. Whereas I think the default will be switched, and it will be that there's a portfolio career. I think that's really positive, particularly for women in the workplace for that generation. I think it offers a lot of flexibility, it offers creativity, it's almost like a hyper mobile workforce where you can do multiple things at once. It's not this or that, it's not binary. 

Rob Freeman: And every employer you work with in your portfolio will be using technology in slightly different ways. People I think need to think more about being, kind of, magpies and just grabbing experience from one place, and a particular tool or the use of things, and that's what builds in who you are and what you have to offer to potential employers, but also that much more modern thing - about actually what does success mean to me in my life now, rather than just getting up and going to work, and going home, and eating, and sleeping, and then in the morning doing the whole thing again. 

Louise Taggart: Quite an existential question there. Sorry, Salome. 

Salome Tirado Okeze: No, I was just going to say I think what's really important about charities like Tech She Can and other ones is just the fact that they have the resources to give students that one-to-one or like closer group where they can be like, 'These are the opportunities you have. You can get there in multiple different ways,' because I tutored my little cousin, I've tutored him since he was in primary school all the way up until now, and he's always struggled with maths, but just because he didn't really engage in that classroom setting. He was led to feel like he just was not smart, that he would not get to go to uni, and then he'd have to get a very basic job. It was only like recently when he started college, he got the opportunity to come actually into PwC and like, with the charity, and to other organisations to get the exposure, he realised, 'I can actually do this. Like, I'm not dumb. I just have a different way of thinking that I can apply'. 

Claire Thorne: I think it really shows you the power of bringing children at the right moments in their schooling into organisations, and also teachers for a little bit of CPD as well. I think that's my own experience. Like I say, I had no role models whatsoever, nobody had been to university in my immediate family before. One of my brothers, a couple of years older than me, was the first, and I really distinctly remember, it must have been, sort of, late '80s early '90s, my dad who was a telecoms engineer, so fairly STEM-y, his organisation was taking part in a national take your daughters to work day. Which sounds ridiculously cheesy, but essentially that's what we're doing at Tech She Can now with our career insights days. We're opening the doors, we're bringing small groups in, and really randomly it was my home ec teacher, my cooking teacher that took me and like five other girls pre-year 11 into my dad's workplace for the day, and it totally sets you on a path. But it's serendipitous, it's piecemeal, it's not systematic in any way, and it just so happens that it reached me. It's about trying to make that really systematic and trying to, you know, access for all, really. 

Louise Taggart: I remember when I was at at school, one of my schoolmate's dads worked at a local nuclear power plant, so we went there for the day, and I remember putting a little hard hat on, and we were all trotting around the nuclear power plant, but it didn't obviously encourage me to be a nuclear engineer. 

Claire Thorne: But it sticks with you. It's an experience you definitely remember. 

Louise Taggart: Absolutely. So we've touched on, or maybe alluded to a possible shift in the relationship between employers and employees when we are looking at things like people having a side hustle, which we mentioned in part one of the podcast episode. Do you think that employers are recognising that these shifts are happening, and that the relationship is changing, and how are they addressing that relationship with Gen Z, particularly in terms of technology? 

Claire Thorne: Yes, I think across our member organisations, so 250 odd, 40 sectors represented, you know, they're donating to Tech She Can to make it happen. They see that there is a need to connect the skills and the roles that they need with what's coming out of the school system. They're totally committed, they totally get it and they're in it for the long haul, but also they need to plug some immediate gaps as well. 

Louise Taggart: If we look forward, you mentioned there that there are both short and long-term needs that are being recognised, and beginning to be addressed maybe. What do we as a group think that the future of this is going to look like? So I suppose in terms of Gen Z's relationship with technology, the pipeline of skills coming through, and that route into the workplace? Does anybody have any kind of, any thoughts on that future piece? Rob, maybe? 

Rob Freeman: I'll give it a go. I'm a bit of a nerd, and I'm a big fan of gaming, and it struck me I think it was Salome, you said coming into the workplace, the interaction was the thing that you went, 'Oh wow, this is not how I expected, and it's really great to interact with people,' and you were exactly right, it is. It's how we learn, and it's how workplaces progress. I think from a technology perspective, when we've just come out of COVID, when we've got groups of particularly new joiners who have been in that, sort of, COVID bubble and lots and lots of online learning, and lots and lots of maybe inductions into organisations that were just online, how do we use technology more effectively from now, and onwards to knit teams and groups together? I think gaming is a really neat way of being able to do that. A study flew across my desk the other week that I thought was particularly relevant to this, and it talks about particularly Gen Z'ers in the workplace, feel that once they've got into a job that they're a bit stuck, and the opportunities to learn go away a bit. Don't forget, they've just had years, and years and years with nothing but learning, and then it's, sort of, 'Okay, now sit here, in your work and do the thing,' and there was this sense in the study that Gen Z'ers reckon that they had to actually leave roles in order to learn and progress. This is obviously bad for employers, because you don't get a good base of really firm knowledgable stuff if people are flitting around too much. So again, how you get people to stay and learn and interact, and I think there are technological ways of doing that. My favourite? Gaming. 

Claire Thorne: I agree on the people piece. I think definitely the sense of community is going to be even more important. I also think that Gen Z'ers, maybe you already are, but I think you will be expecting better workplace systems and better workplace management, better organisational culture than what's gone before. You're so savvy and you've got these really high expectations rightly so, and I think that the organisational structure and the management style needs to play catch up with that, and we're going to need to raise our game to be able to retain you, I think. I feel kind of hopeful, because I don't know if you agree, but I think already we are generating more positive diverse relatable role models than we've ever had before. So I feel like it's only getting better in that sense, and I think the other challenge and opportunity for employers with Gen Z'ers is to really recognise that the digital natives are absolutely content creators. I mean, I see it with my oldest who's seven, and she just wants to create content all the time. Not necessarily upload it for others to consume, but you know, just natural communicators and natural content creators, so that's something I think for the employers to harness. 

Emma Fuentes: Yes, I think on the point on content creation, I think I'm really hopeful for the future in terms of bringing more representation, accurate representation of what it's like to work in STEM, just because people are using things like TikTok younger and younger, and they're exposed to so much content of people putting out what it's like, a day in the life of someone in this field, or you know, get ready with me and go to this job. It actually provides an accurate representation of what it's like to work in a certain field or industry that you wouldn't necessarily have had before. I think it's really helpful in challenging harmful stereotypes that people would have had previously that would have maybe been a barrier to entry. So yes, I'm really hopeful that things like social media will help in getting more people into STEM. 

Louise Taggart: That was a really nice, positive note maybe to end on there, so thank you. I think really nice to hear that Claire, you think that Gen Z'ers are actually setting the bar high, which will benefit everybody in the workplace, that technology is helping to make the workplace more accessible and more diverse, and bringing that new level, and new layer of creativity to what we're doing. So I think all that's left to say now is actually a lot of thank yous. So firstly, thank you to my four guests for joining me today, Claire, Emma, Rob and Salome. Also a big thank you to all the guests who've joined over the previous episodes, who have shared their insights and their expertise over a huge variety of different topics. Also a thank you and a shout out to my co-hosts who joined on previous episodes, so Felicity, Hugo, and Shreya. Also a big thank you to everybody who made this happen behind the scenes, so the brilliant technical studio team, and also the ever-patient and creative producers, currently Rupert and Chris. Last but certainly not least, thank you to all of the listeners for joining us on this technological, alphabetical adventure. So we may have now reached the end of the alphabet, but potentially this might not be the last you hear from us. So do stay subscribed, and keep your ears open.