Episode 28: Z for Gen Z (part 1) - transcript

Moderator questions in bold, respondents in regular text.

Louise Taggart: Hello and welcome to The A-Z of Tech Podcast, where I can't believe I'm saying this we have actually made it all the way through the alphabet to Z. So, we'll be using this episode to explore Gen-Z and its relationship, of course, with technology. So, just for context Gen-Z is traditionally, kind of, eleven to 26 years old. So, that's born between around 1997 and 2012 and of course, as there is with any generation there are some stereotypes associated with that. So, maybe the assumption that they're more comfortable or maybe even too comfortable with technology, with things like social media, with immersive technologies or that they're more savvy when it comes to some of the opportunities that that type of technology presents.

We're also going to be maximising this episode by releasing it as a double header. So, for this first part of the podcast I'm very excited to say that I am joined in the studio for a round table discussion by four colleagues from across PwC who have some different perspectives on Gen-Z and the relationship with technology. And the second part of this podcast we're going to be talking to some experts about some of those topics that we're discussing in this round table. Personally, I am unfortunately quite a long way off being a member of Generation-Z, I am what is rather depressingly referred to as a geriatric millennial. So, I'm very much feeling my age today, but we'll move swiftly on from that and instead I will ask our four guests to introduce themselves. So, who shall I turn to first? Salome, would you like to go first?

Salome Tirado Okeze: Yes, sure. So, my name is Salome, I'm a technology degree apprentice, so I'm studying computer science at Leeds as well as working at PwC in consulting. And yes, I was born in 2002, so definitely I'm a Gen-Z and I identify with them a lot.

LT: Elinor.

Elinor Matheson-Dear: Hi, my name is Elinor. I joined PwC back in September 2021 on the management consulting grad scheme. I'm born in 1998 so, kind of, just on the cusp of being a Gen-Z and I think, maybe don't identify with all of the stereotypes. So, really looking forward to discussing that later.

LT: Thank you. Shadia.

Shadia Bakar: Hello, I'm Shadia. I am a 97 baby, so I also am on cusp of just about qualifying for millennial but also Gen-Z. I joined the firm in October of 2022, and I work in the corporate affairs team.

LT: Brilliant, thank you both. So, both of you identifying as being on the cusp of what it means to be Gen-Z, so I'm looking forward to hearing a bit about that. And, last but not least, Ran.

Ran Kinloch Jones: Hi, I'm Ran. I used to be a science teacher, now I've been at PwC for four years or so as an enterprise consultant. But on the side, I started over lockdown a TikTok channel which is going to 50,000 school student followers giving career advice, science advice, personal statement university application advice. All the stuff that, it's called Beyond the Blackboard, so all the stuff that you don't learn in the classroom is the theme. And I am bang in the middle of millennial. So, I guess my perspective is a millennial trying to be cool and talk to Gen-Z's at school.

LT: That's brilliant. Thank you all so much and I genuinely think we're going to have a really interesting discussion today. So, let's dive straight in. So, I suppose the first question almost as a bassline is what would you say is your relationship with technology?

STO: I can't imagine a world without technology. Like, I was speaking to my dad, and he told me that he went to uni without a laptop. And I was like, 'How?' And even stuff like driving, using Google Maps, I can't imagine using a paper map to get around to places and I feel like I've seen technology grow, but not as much as some other people like millennials. But because I've always grown up with it, I feel like I'm very reliant on it now, I can't imagine a world without it.

LT: So, no map reading?

STO: No, no map reading.

LT: And Ran, I suppose we've already touched on the fact that you have this incredible platform that social media has given you. Could you tell us about your perspective on that and how you actually use that to interact with Gen-Z?

RKJ: Yes, sure. So, I think, firstly, I'm terrible with social media in general, I haven't posted on Instagram for about three years and so. As I say, it was a lockdown project this TikTok channel and I just started posting content that I thought would be useful for students. And then it just went from there and I had a few viral videos and now as I say, have a school student following. So, for me, technology is really about communication, it's opened up this huge avenue where perhaps, previously if I wanted to go and talk about the things that I wanted to, I'd have to go to individual schools or assemblies. Now I can make one video and get a reach of anywhere between 200,000 and a million of my audience and I find that really satisfying. It's a different form of content as well. So, you can have fun with TikTok, and you can do all these TikTok dances, which I'm afraid I've done.

LT: Does that feature on your platform?!

RKJ: It does. I mean, I'm a trend guru. I really stay on top of things and do whatever it takes to make the content engaging because it can quite dry sometimes. So, it's a way of making it really fun as well, I think.

LT: I'm going to have to look at these after we've finished recording this, absolutely.

RKJ: Please do!

LT: So, would you refer to that as a side hustle?

RKJ: I mean, yes, absolutely, a side hustle, something that's sustainable to my day job. I probably spend on average five minutes a day on it and I think it's great. And I think it's never been easier for anyone to start a side hustle and if I can do it, as I say, zero social media experience starting, then I really think anyone can do it.

LT: So, that's something that's obviously been empowered through technology. How do the rest of you feel about the side hustle affecting your relationship with an employer in the traditional sense? Do you feel like side hustles have become a much more legitimate way of building a career, versus that traditional relationship with an employer where it's nine to five and you go to the workplace or the office and that's it.

SB: I would say they're great for now but my only reservation about side hustles that solely rely on tech and social media to thrive is the sustainability of it. Your career is probably more secure than a career online. I know many might disagree with that but again, it's like peaks and troughs online, what's trending, what's not. Things are becoming really oversaturated online, everyone thinks they can do what the next person is doing. My concern is the security and the sustainability of a career online.

STO: I agree, because a lot of the time loads of people that have grown an audience on TikTok, that doesn't audience doesn't necessarily transcend to other social media platforms like, Instagram for example. And there's a consensus that when celebrities, they can post whatever they want on any social media, and they will get followings and they will automatically have the opportunities. Whereas somebody that might put lots of work into something like TikTok, if TikTok now goes down, they'll have to start fresh again on another platform.

RKJ: Do you guys know, out of interest, apart from social media, anyone in your peer group with side hustles? That are relatively successful?.......Not so many, interesting. I felt like everyone had one, but maybe not, yes.

EMD: I studied entrepreneurship at university and so, I guess from that quite specific network have a few friends who have gone down different avenues and one classmate started a sustainable cabin business with his cousin, which seems to be really great. And I understand what you're saying, a lot of the time the avenues for entrepreneurship opportunities now seem to be very, very tech focused, but there's certainly still instances where that's not the case that I've come across.

SB: I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one, definitely.

STO: Yes.

LT: So, thinking about your relationship with tech a bit more broadly then, we've, kind of, touched on what that means maybe for having a side job, but thinking about how you see that relationship compared to that of maybe people in other generations. So, maybe family members or even colleagues at work.

SB: I think we're quite a text heavy generation. My favourite form of communicating with people is to just text them, whereas I have a very big family and everyone else's favourite mode of communication is phone calls. And it's like, texting you can do in between a job, in between anything else you have going on, whereas phone calls require time for you to sit and dedicate the time to communicate with them over the phone. So, I guess, that's the struggle I have with communication, especially because we're all in different parts of the country. So, like, visiting isn't always an option. So, phone calls are like, you know, keep it personable, you've got FaceTime. It's like, the time, I feel we, for some reason our generation seem to always be in a rush, we always have things to do, we're always go go go. And because of that, texting just makes life so much easier but that's not what works for our parents, our grandparents, our aunties, for example. That's just something I've noticed, with me in particular anyway.

LT: Yes, actually, I have to say I would agree with that. So, I did my first ever FaceTime call with my parents when we went into lockdown. They'd never even touched FaceTime before and I was like, 'Parents, you can see my face.' But yes, so I think absolutely, like different generations I think, do have different levels of love for old school phone calls and that kind of thing. So, Ran, would you agree with that? That different generations have a different relationship with technology.

RKJ: Yes, and I can comment on that from just growing up and I think I remember when dial-up was still a thing and the awful noise it used to make. Do you guys? Do you remember dial-up? Exactly, it's a horrible noise that I won't repeat right now and so, I've got certain stages of technology going through the ages or how it's developed and really basic things. It dawned on me yesterday that my life is so much easier than ten years ago. I did my self-assessment tax return yesterday through a company.

LT: Oh dear.

RKJ: Yes, I know, exactly. I dreaded it, I absolutely dreaded it and I even tried to do it myself through the classic portal and then I found a bit of technology that literally, I could take a photo of things and it linked in with the system and it just made everything-, it took about half an hour, it was so incredibly simple. Five years ago, I couldn't do that, ten years ago, I couldn't do that. Same with being able to setup a website. We've got stuff like Wix and Squarespace and plenty of other providers that with no coding experience, you can just make a website, boom, it's there. Ten years ago, I don't really think you could do that in the same way. Even personal use accounting software, it's all really cheap now and so accessible and for me it just makes my life so much easier. I don't know, I guess all this stuff is just standard practice for you guys, whereas for me, it's always a marvel, basically.

LT: No, absolutely. I would definitely agree with that. One thing I'd be interested to hear about is where would you as Gen-Z's or on the cusp of being a Gen-Zer, where do you get news from? Where do you go to consume news and information? Because for me, I'd go to a traditional news outlet website or maybe even occasionally treat myself to a physical newspaper, but I know that's a bit old hat now. But I'd be really interested to hear, is that where you would go, or where you go to somewhere like social media, for example? Salome, I can see you shaking your head, I'm going to ask you.

STO: I can't remember the last time I picked up a newspaper, but definitely TikTok, Twitter and just Instagram, social media, there's so many pages that are traditional e-magazines that have a social media presence, and they'll just do a post and summarise it in one square, like a headline. Which can lead to a lot of fake news spreading, but as an initial information source, it's always nicer for me to see something visual rather than a block of text. So, I always go to those channels. Like, I was saying, I live in Yorkshire and my dad came up and I wanted to give him the best things to do in Yorkshire, instead of typing it in on Google, I would type it in on TikTok and then they'd be someone showing me a video of them in the place, and you can see it in a more visual way.

LT: So, actually something that's more engaging, something that's a bit more bite sized and going back to that accessibility as well, I suppose. Elinor, I'll ask you as well, where would you go? Are you a similar approach, or a bit different?

EMD: I think I'm a bit more boring and I just go to a typically news outlet. So, something like the BBC and that's part of my morning routine I think, when I open up my laptop. That's one of the first things I look at with my emails, but yes, I understand why it could be a bit more interesting to have something visual. It's just not something I've got used to yet.

LT: So, Salome you mentioned there, one of the downsides. So, potential for disinformation or misinformation spreading. So, I'd be interested to explore some of those downsides of Gen-Z's relationship with tech. Maybe things about privacy concerns or sharing information online, what your approaches are to that. Shadia, I might turn to you first. What's your approach to your digital footprint?

SB: I keep my profiles private, I always have. I've been very hyper aware of, not necessarily my digital footprint but just security reasons online. In high school you hear a lot of things happening and things spreading online, all this stuff, so you don't want to be a victim of that. So, just, the less you have online the better. So, I've always kept my socials private, and I think by keeping my platforms in terms of who's following me etc., it's only people that I know in real life 99% of the time. People I work with, I've had loads of jobs, so you accumulate loads of people overtime but then I also do this thing where I have cleaning sprees. So, eventually I'll just go and be like, not blocking but it's like this thing called soft blocking, so you block and unblock. So, then they're just not following you anymore. So, I have those nice tidy sprees every now and then. But I just keep very private socials and I don't say or do anything absurd online that would haunt me in the future.

LT: So, actually, I'd say that maybe goes against the stereotype of Gen-Z, just being comfortable with sharing their entire lives online. So, yes, really interesting to hear.

Shadia: Don't get me wrong, I talk into the black hole on Twitter, but only for my ten followers, on a locked account!

RKJ: And I think just another, to add to that. When I was a teacher, it was really great to see that that was actually in the curriculum as a PSHE lesson. Whereas when I was at school, it wasn't really, it was just the birth of social media as it were. So, everyone was working it out. So, I think it's great that-, I don't know if that had an influence on you as well, what was taught at school.

SB: I think it was becoming something that we were taught in school because of incidents that had occurred by that point. It was more, 'Let's try and stop this from happening again.' And some form of damage control, but the damage was already done, and a lot of people's lives were ruined and a lot of trauma. So, it was definitely eye opening as a thirteen, fourteen year old seeing these things happening and literally just because we all had access to the internet, we all had smartphones, you know, BlackBerry's were the things back then so smartphones with cameras. So, it is something they implemented whilst I was in school but not necessarily something we were taught to prevent that kind of stuff happening. Which again, comes from the fact that it didn't exist before and it wasn't necessarily considered an issue before. Suddenly, everyone had a smartphone at twelve years old.

LT: Yes. So, sort of, seeing it first-hand was a lesson in what you were comfortable with doing.

SB: Yes.

LT: And Elinor and Salome, do you have a similar approach? Are you digital shadows as it were, or are you a bit more open with what you put online?

STO: I think I'm more open. Everything I have is public, I do have some private channels, but I prefer to just open it up to everyone because I feel like I have so much to share in terms of opportunities and I love connecting with people. But I also see the dangers of that as well, especially with geotagging, the ability to now put your location when you take a picture. On loads of social media, I think you were speaking about it before but loads of people tend to geotag when they leave a location, just in case somebody with bad intentions sees that post. I don't really have that fear, we're taught about it in school, but it never made me scared because I just see like, 'Oh, yes. Something bad could happen.' But at the same time, this is just how it's been.

LT: Yes.

EMD: Thinking about geotagging and being able to share location in the way you described could be quite a scary thing, or a bad thing but something I really love is being able to do ‘find my friends’, so if you're on your phone, being able to have in the background, something monitoring where you are with a very particular group of people. I think that's something that's made me feel a lot safer moving to a new city, knowing that if something was to happen, my friends would know where I am or vice versa.

LT: Yes. So, I suppose both sides of the coin really, isn't it? Absolutely. Would or have any of you do a digital detox? Have you ever tried to be offline for a bit or is that, actually, is it too integrated into your lives to have that break, do you think?

EMD: I think outside an ordinary scenario of your everyday working life, something I really love is to try and be off my phone. So, if I'm on holiday, I deliberately don't try and buy data packets, so I can't use any internet or 3G and really just take that as a special opportunity to put my phone away. But otherwise, I think in my normal life just with the job I do and the way that I connect with my friends, it almost feels like that would be impossible.

RKJ: I need a digital detox because I get so hooked. I've got two phones, I've got my work phone and I've got my personal phone and obviously, being on the socials, doing these, it can be really addictive when you're looking at the engagement and whatever. I've got rid of all notifications on my phone now, that's my, not a digital detox, but it's a way of not constantly monitoring it, I guess, but I do need a digital detox. I've got a holiday coming up in Morocco, so maybe I can do it then.

STO: Same, wait.

RKJ: Oh, yes. Where do you go?

SB: You can detox together!

EMD: Ran, I'm curious, as someone who didn't really use social much before or didn't really consume much content from the platforms. How has that changed now that you've got your business?

RKJ: Yes, a lot. I try to use it as a tool as much as possible to build my following or keep my following engaged. So, I try to look at videos to get better with my videos. So, if someone's done something really cool or they've got really nice lighting or they've done something.

LT: Or a great dance.

RKJ: Yes, great dance, exactly, yes! I try to take bits and pieces that I like. That's what I'd like, in reality, I then go start scrolling and I just see dog videos. The algorithm knows I love dog videos and so, I'd say I consume a lot more social media content than I did previously because I'm in that world now, I guess.

LT: I mean, there are some great dog videos out there as well, so.

RKJ: They're so good. They're so good.

LT: Absolutely. Okay, so moving away from dog videos. We're obviously here in our place of work, so I suppose my next question would be what implications do you think all of this has for the workplace? Have you found there are benefits to tech in the workplace, are there challenges that you've found with the use of technology? I'd be particularly interested to hear maybe from you Elinor, given that you joined during covid, is that right?

EMD: Yes, so September 2021. So, just at the tail end, I guess, of lockdowns and restrictions. So, I think I've had quite an interesting start to work in the sense that actually, I've never experienced a nine to five job in its typical form where you'd be in the office or on client site every day. Instead, I have a bit of a mixed week where some days I'll work from home and then some days I will come in. Something I think, well, I guess, thinking back to even this morning, a really great example of where I've been able to benefit from working remotely is that we had workshops starting at the UK time of 7:00am. And I would not have wanted to be up in the office for then. But I guess, looking at that from a different angle, something I've really missed is a bit more face time, a bit more interaction with clients. And so, I'm conscious that that's perhaps a bit of a gap in the way that I've been able to develop. So, certainly advantages and disadvantages.

LT: Yes. And maybe, Salome, I might ask you, joining as a TDA. So, you're, sort of, one foot in the university and the one foot in the world of work. How have you found the use of technology in the workplace and was it what you expected?

STO: It was definitely not what I expected. I didn't realise how virtual it would be, but yes, I joined right during Covid. So, my whole uni experience and work experience was online, and I think I made the most of it because I didn't know any better. I didn't know that, for example, at university you're supposed to go into lectures, and I didn't know that in work you were supposed to have meetings in person. For me what made sense was to be online as it saves travelling time and everything. So, I feel like because I've got used to it, I didn't really see any negative implications. Until everything started opening up and we started meeting people in person. I was like, 'Wow, this is different. This is more enjoyable.'

LT: Yes. So, I suppose there are advantages and disadvantages and just trying to maximise that as much as possible. Yes, Shadia and Ran, what about your perspectives on this in the workplace?

RKJ: I think there's a massive, interesting opportunity that I can see across all social media platforms. I know that I've been talking about social media a lot, I guess it's more my area. But across LinkedIn, across TikTok, across Instagram, for businesses to recruit, specifically young people or target demographics to whatever social media platform it is. So, as a recruitment drive but also potentially to sell as well, sell more, even B2B or business to business sales, there's a big opportunity to increase business brand presence, empower employees to start to get on all the social media channels more and start to give their thought leadership and what they think and I guess, become mini-influencers in their own space. To build a brand, decentralising marketing in a way and I know that's something that PwC at the moment are working on and we've got a coaching programme that I'm running internally to upskill people in how to do that and I think that's really exciting.

LT: And Shadia, I know one thing that we touched on when we were having the conversation before we got into the studio, was actually around some of the benefits in terms of accessibility when it comes to technology.

SB: Yes. So, I graduated in 2019 and then I did an internship in central Government. Everyone was in the office then, this was just before lockdown and everything and then I started my next role in lockdown. So, then I had the whole, full virtual experience as well and I think the benefit of technology is that it allows for us to do our jobs from anywhere a lot of time, depending on obviously, the rules of the company. So, it gives us that flexibility if there's a family emergency, whatever it is, you always have that flexibility to be able to be present at your job or be present where you're needed because we have the tech with us. People didn't have laptops before really, 2018, 2019 that they could take outside of the office. There are so many benefits to the technology, we can spend all day talking about the downsides, but I think I there's so many positives to see in the fact that we have the flexibility, it's really accessible. To the degree obviously again, it's questionable however, it's again allowing the platform and the space and the room for people to grow, develop and go into something that maybe wasn't necessarily available to them before so, yes.

LT: So, maybe moving onto a final question around looking to the future and how technology is evolving and how our relationships with technology evolve. What do you anticipate that might look like in the future when it comes to the workplace in particular? Like, I know you don't have crystal balls, so it is a difficult one to answer but what are your estimates in terms of what that might look like? Does anyone have any ideas?

STO: I think there's going to be more choice. So, I grew up when the first smartphones were coming out. I had a brick phone and I remember everybody started getting smartphones and every year they would change and become significantly more and more different. So, every year people upgrading, and it was like a raise, 'Oh, do you have the newest one?' And then now since smartphones like, they're not evolving as quickly, it's plateaued just slightly. Maybe they'll be a new innovation but now people are able to make more choices. Like, I don't need the newest one if this one does everything I need. Or for example, I've seen lots of people switching out wireless headphones for wired ones because you don't need to charge them and it's easier to find and the music quality is better. And me personally, I had a smart watch and I switched it for an analogue watch because I just felt like I was looking at too much technology. And I didn't want to have to now have another thing to charge, for example. So, in the past I feel like people will try and stay on the trend of getting the newest technology, but now, we can make choices between technology and not.

LT: So, you think that we might become a bit more selective in the technology we use and how we use it and not feel like there's a huge rush to have the next big thing. More like, incremental changes. Would the rest of you agree with that? Or do you have a different idea in what the future might look like.

RKJ: Yes, and I think there's going to be certain things that people go a bit more analogue on. Like, podcasts, which we're recording now, my goodness - ‘meta’! That's almost like it's back to radio in a way. So, you could make an argument that that's slightly less digital. But two areas that I'm really interested in metaverse or more generally, VR. This arms race between VR and AR, virtual reality and augmented reality. I think in the next ten years, we can definitely say that that is going to play some part in the workplace, whether it's through virtual meetings or I don't know, glasses with certain information for you before meetings or something, I don't know. I'm not an expert in the field but it feels inevitable that something is going to happen there, doesn't it?

SB: The only question I have about it is, is it necessary? Like, do we have to follow all these changes that are being, not pushed on us but we're seeing it everywhere else, and I wonder if employers need to follow these trends or go with the way that technologies going. Because I feel like,you know the old classic saying, if it's not broken, you don't need to fix it, right? So, things are okay now, I don't know if we need to adopt all these new things to just basically, continue doing what we're already doing every day.

RKJ: Yes, for the sake of it, yes.

SB: Yes, literally. So, yes.

STO: I agree, because during COVID, as in the COVID year, one of the things they trailed on us was virtual reality university. So, you go into the platform to have your lectures but you're a persona and you can speak to your friends in a virtual way. So, it's like you're there but it just didn't feel real. I know everybody else would just prefer to go into the lecture hall or do an online lecture. It just felt very clunky and forced, like they were trying to make it seem like the real-life experience, but no one's really taken to it.

SB: Like, why can't we just have real life experiences? Why does everything have to be a replica of real life? We're here, we're real. Let's just have real life. Yes, that's my only concern with the way tech is evolving in the workforce, outside of work, it's just like, let's just live now in the real, in the physical, you know?

EMD: And I think for me it's just going to be an exciting ten years, you never could've anticipated the changes from when I was fourteen to now and I think coming with that with a work perspective, I don't know what my career will look like in ten years time. You can have some loose goals and ambitions but what I could be doing ten years from now could be totally different from today.

LT: Yes, absolutely. There's always that element of the unknown, isn't there? And I think actually the point you're making about, not innovation for innovation's sake, but just identifying opportunities where it can add real value to what we already have. I think that's a great takeaway. So, yes, I think we're about out of time now but that's been such an enjoyable discussion. Thank you all so much for joining me. And listeners, I hope you found it as insightful as well and eye opening too. And do make sure you join us for the second instalment of the Gen-Z episode as well when that's released.

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