Watch the recording: PwC’s IPO Panel Discussion: Why now is the right time to consider a London IPO?

31/01/25

Transcript

Vhernie Manickavasagar: Good morning everyone, and welcome to our panel discussion today on why now is the right time to consider a London IPO. I'm Vhernie Manickavasagar, a capital markets partner at PwC, and I will be your host for today's session. Joining me on our panel today, are some colleagues from the city, we have two representatives from the investment banking sector, Alex Bloch, head of UK equity capital markets at UBS, Brian Hanratty, head of equity capital markets at Peel Hunt. We also have Bod Buckby back be joining us from the London Stock Exchange. Sarah Ries-Coward, a partner at the law firm Herbert Smith Freehills and Mike Wisson a PwC capital markets partner to provide an accounting lens.

To kick off our discussion. I'd like to start with market sentiment. If I first start with a look back on 2024, I think we'd all agree that from a global perspective, the equity market was strong. From the MSCI World Index, that was up 20%. From a European perspective, we also saw multi-billion IPOs get away, and by the end of the year, the European markets raised almost double the IPO proceeds that they did in 2023. From a London market perspective, I think we found that there was a slower start in terms of IPOs. But on the secondary markets, we saw some really sizeable further offers and rights issues get away, like National Grid.

And as we continue through the year, we saw some mid-cap IPOs come through like Raspberry Pi and Applied Nutrition, both of which were very successful. And towards the end of the year, there was a further boost to the markets when Canal+ opted for London as its listing venue of choice, and that was quite a sizeable listing with a 2 billion market cap.

So with all of that as a backdrop, I'd be really interested to hear what you think in terms of market sentiment for 2025. So, Alex, should we start with you because you speak to a number of clients and a number of investors? What are you hearing in terms of market sentiment and investor appetite for London IPOs?

Alex Bloch: Thanks, Vhernie. I think you summarised last year. Well, and I think we go into this year positive about both equity capital markets activity more broadly, but also IPO activity, in the UK. I think that everything that we saw last year post a quiet 22 and 23 demonstrated that actually, despite some of what you read, you know, out there, capital markets are functioning very well.

Companies are able to issue equity very successfully, and existing shareholders are able to sell down, stakes in listed companies very, very efficiently and effectively as well. Actually, much better than some of them expected. So I think the tone of the start of this year is positive. I think where we're seeing a lot of renewed interest in conversations around IPO issuance, but also with our listed clients, I think they're also on a more front footed, place as well.

So I think we will see issuance this year from high quality UK corporates. We will see more big block activity like we saw at the start of the year, two very big blocks in the UK demonstrating the depth of the UK market. And as I said, conversations really ramping up around IPO issuance as well.

Vhernie: That's great to hear and Brian, what are you seeing from a mid-cap perspective?

Brian Hanratty: Sure. Well, look, I echo a lot of the comments from Alex there. I think there's certainly a lot of constructive optimism. I mean, firstly, from an equity markets perspective, if you look at the thematics that are expected to shape global equity markets in 2025, such as trade tariffs, potential deregulation and pro energy policies, there was an expectation, I think, that they might favour the UK more than other regions, specifically in Europe. So that's positive.

You know, around the mid-cap space. I think what's been shaping a lot of the sentiment is outflows. And I think it's been well publicised that we've had 41 months of outflows to November last year. Now that did reverse. And I think on a positive note, those outflows are getting smaller. I think we mentioned a number of deals that happened last year, and it's definitely clear that there are pools of demand for the right situations.

And then from an IPO perspective, as you mentioned, where we saw most progress last year in the UK was around the mid-cap space. The largest premium listing was Raspberry Pi, for example, for £180 million. We didn't really see some of those larger cap transactions that we saw in Europe. So actually the UK mid-cap IPO space has been working relatively well. The vast majority of those transactions priced and traded very well in the aftermarket. As you alluded to. And as we look forward to the next few months, I think investors acknowledge it's a product that's working well, particularly around the mid-market space. And they're certainly constructive on processes that we're looking at for the next couple of months.

Vhernie: Great. Thank you very much, Brian.

And Bod if I turn to you from a London Stock Exchange perspective? What are you seeing in terms of activity levels, both from a primary and secondary market perspective?

Bod Buckby: Well, when I just arrived in your reception area here just now, the song that was playing was Moving on Up. And I don't know whether that was, you know, deliberate, an incredibly well thought out or, just very apt and a happy coincidence.

But what we have seen is a big uplift in and activity on the London Stock Exchange last year. So activity was 34% up on the previous year. Yeah. And that was on a year that itself was 31% up on the on the previous year. So what we've seen is a really significant and sustained now, building of activity in London. And to sort of give some context to that, the UK was the fourth largest, market by activity last year. And when you, globally and when you take into account that the UK is the sixth largest economy globally, actually the UK is punching above its weight, when it comes to equity capital markets.

And, to look at it, sort of slightly differently, London was by far the largest market within Europe. Again, so more than 2.6 times, the equity raised in London than in Paris, which was the next biggest, or more than the next three exchanges combined. So, yeah, I don't think the necessarily it's the way that we always think about London or certainly the impression that you might get if you read the press, but actually, there are some really positive signs and, and as Alex says, that's continued into this year with, already around 4 billion of issuance.

So, that's really positive news for any company looking to list this year, because it shows that investors do have capital and they are prepared to deploy it.

Vhernie: Yeah. Perfect. Thank you Bod, I think that was very helpful.

If we then turn to look at industry sector, I know from our global IPO watch publication, we noted that the consumer markets were the most popular in 2024, in terms of IPO issuance. But when I look at things from a UK domestic perspective, it feels to me like financial services, maybe the whole sector. So, could I get your thoughts on where you think the IPOs will come from? Are there particular industry sectors that you think will be more fruitful?

Alex: Yeah, I agree with you. I think financial services, obviously we’re a financial services led economy. We've got other great industries as well. You mentioned Canal+ and clearly the media sector as a whole is a real strong point for the UK. But I think when we look to near-term IPOs over the next 12, 24 months, I think financial services will be an important component of that. We've also obviously got a fantastic fintech sector. And clearly that is a space also where I think we're going to see issuance coming on the IPO front over the next couple of years.

Vhernie: Yeah, that's very helpful. And I guess the other thing is London is very much an international stock exchange as well. So, when you look at the international companies looking at London, are there any thematics coming out from there in terms of particular industry sectors?

Alex: I think it's I think it's a little bit case by case. On that front, on the international front, I was out in Singapore, a few months ago, was in the U.S recently. There are U.S. companies thinking about listing in the UK despite everything that you hear. But yeah, Singapore, there's quite a lot of interest out of the Southeast Asia, and Asia more broadly. I think the geopolitical environment that we're in means that for some companies, the US is actually, you know, just not going to be a place that they that they're really thinking about. And I think London is absolutely best place within Europe to capture that international issuance.

Vhernie: And, Brian, what are you seeing from a mid-cap perspective from an industry perspective?

Brian: Well, in 24, we saw a really broad range of sectors, IPOs. So we had tech, we had healthcare, we had industrials, we had consumer. So no single thematic. We saw issuance across the board. And I think as we look forward to 25, if we strip out FIG and Fintech, I think we're going to see a broad range of sectors.

Again, FIG is definitely the prominent one. I think less than certain sectors being prominent. I think within each sector, investors are looking for winners, those with track record and those with, you know, attractive growth characteristics rather than zoning in on specific sectors themselves.

Vhernie: Again, very, very helpful. So the opportunity out there for the multiple industry sectors, if we then shift focus to talking a little bit about private equity, you know, if I look back at 2024, there was a number of very successful PE backed businesses that got away. And we all know that there's been a period of time where private equity has retained assets. These assets have become very mature, such that IPO is probably the most viable exit option. What are the trends that you're seeing, Brian, in terms of private equity?

Brian: What certainly was very interesting to note in 2024 that compared with some of the big private equity transactions we saw in Europe, UK IPO activity was very much founder led, and we haven't yet really seen that pipeline of sponsor IPOs come to market.

We're definitely expecting that to change next year. I think if you look at the pipeline and the companies that are getting ready, we're seeing much more sponsor backed assets. Looking at listing over the next couple of months, it's been well talked about. That assets are becoming more mature in private equity portfolios, and maybe there's less willingness to move them into continuation funds.

So there is an expectation that we're going to see maybe a bit more pressure and keenness on their side to look at IPO. And not to say that we've seen a lot of that yet, but I think the drumbeat is definitely getting a bit stronger, and we're expecting that to increase over the coming months.

Vhernie: Okay. And Alex, are you seeing similar dynamics?

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I think when we talk about the IPO market being quiet for, for a few years, but we shouldn't forget what happened over that time period. So, there were good reasons why the IPO market was quiet for a period of time. I think that, in some cases, also businesses had more work to do internally before they were ready to go public.

And then, you know, I think the other point is that sponsors are obviously financially driven. And, you know, we've seen some sponsor exits which have gone M&A, you know, that will have been explored for other assets as well. But I think the combination of some very big companies that are too large for for M&A plus, you know, some other situations where the IPO market is more suitable than an M&A solution for various different reasons, means definitely we will see more sponsor led activity over the coming up couple of years.

Vhernie: And I suppose in the past, sometimes we've seen a bit of a difference in valuation expectations from the private equity house and investors how do you think that's going to play out or, you know, potentially are there different strategies that private equity houses may employ?

Alex: I think sponsors have massively developed their understanding of how public markets work versus where we were ten, 15 years ago. And I think they also now think on much more of a portfolio basis. So actually they know that and the sponsors are getting bigger and bigger as well. So they know that for their businesses to function well, they need to establish a good reputation in the public markets. I think you've seen that also in the way they've conducted their own IPOs. So you've seen IPO's across the continent, which have been done and which have traded well subsequently. So I think there is much more, respect from the sponsor side for the way public markets work. They're much more focussed on building a track record of being able to, you know, be good owners of assets, good set up as good sellers of assets and that gives them much more flexibility going forwards.

Vhernie: Great. Thank you. Bod anything to add from your perspective in terms of PE activity.

Bod: Yeah I think private equity understand that the IPO market's a cyclical. And actually given where we are in that cycle now, we're seeing a real change in the way that those PE houses are interacting with us. So they are bringing us in they are walking through their portfolio, talking to us about those assets in their portfolio that they think may be, future IPO's and in some cases actually then mapping out a, a sort of a list of the ones that they expect to be sort of first off, the rank and, that they intend to test the markets with before then, potentially proceeding with the others. And introducing this to, to the teams to help them get ready for an IPO process. So, there's been a real change I would say in, in behaviour. And the sort of focus on readying their portfolios for IPO.

Vhernie: And so, I guess another topic I'd like to touch on as well is in terms of listing value, we speak to a number of clients who consider multiple different listing venues before they make a choice. And I know we often go hand in hand with our U.S capital markets colleagues to speak to companies around, you know, which venue is the right option for them. So I guess I'd like to ask you a little bit more about what is London's competitive advantage versus other major markets like the US and Europe? Maybe I'll start with you, Alex.

Alex: I think London is it clearly has been and continues to be a major financial centre. It's one of the three biggest financial centres, globally. I mean, we all know that the US has performed well over the last couple of years, and that has clearly led to more companies weighing up the options of whether they go public in the US or whether they go public here. And there has been some high profile debate about that. But for so many companies, London is the right answer. It brings a fantastic investor base. It brings the most international investor base that you can get in any of those big, financial hubs. And it brings also, I think, an advisor, an investor community that is long term oriented and provides a great home for listed companies.

If you think back about how did how did the UK market support companies, when we went through the financial crisis, when we went through Covid, that couldn't have been a better place to be listed. So again, I think that a lot of this more sort of long term, perspective is missing from the current debate, which is just focussed on how is S&P performed over the last few months versus FTSE 100. And I think this is a great home for companies that belong here. And that doesn't mean every UK company, but it's the vast majority of them and it's a lot of international ones as well.

Vhernie: And Bod I'm going to ask you as well.

Bod: You know, it's a conversation that we are having regularly. And, you know, again, I'd say this there's has been a bit of a narrative built up around this that lots of businesses are all listing in, in the US and, getting fantastic results so that if you look at the data over the last ten years, so looking right through the cycles, there have been twenty businesses, UK businesses that have raised more than $100 billion in an IPO in the US. Of those twenty, four are trading above their IPO price, nine have de-listed and the rest are trading down an average of 84%. So, it's been a really brutal route, actually, for those businesses that that have tried to go that route and yet we believe that actually the UK has all the strengths that we just talked about. And what we're doing is having direct conversations with those companies that think about this to, to try to overcome that narrative which they seem to have built up.

Vhernie: Yeah. And, I know that our U.S capital markets colleagues here in London would probably say, when you have a US nexus, that's when it may make sense.

If you don't, it may not necessarily make sense to go down that route. And Sara, I'd like to ask your perspective as well from a legal perspective, because the two regimes are a very different. So what are your thoughts on this topic?

Sarah Ries-Coward: Well, you can't get away from the litigation. The litigation environment is very different in the US and in the UK, and really the UK is set up. It's deliberately done so that litigation is up the final route, that it's not easy to bring these big security class actions, which you see in the US, to add to your stats, to throw one out there. So since 1996, the Stanford law I've been doing this study looking at what is the cumulative cost of US security class actions. And it's $118 billion, which is a huge number. And you can see that with the cases. I mean, in the UK, you probably got about a dozen or so big class actions. In the US, that's 52,000. I mean, obviously the markets are very different, but that is a huge difference there. And it just goes back to the heart of how these regimes are set up. And really you see sort of litigation built into the US. And that then goes to costs. So things like, DNO insurance basically add a digit to it when you're going to the US. The risks for managers directors is something for you to really think about because it's personal to you and the time that you need to then invest around it. And, and just the costs of even just doing the IPO, generally 2 to 3 times more expensive to do the IPO, once you take into account the different fees and you may not get the returns from it. So it really is one of those to think really carefully about what is the right venue for it, not just assume the US is the right place. And particularly now with all the reforms that have been and continuing to come through, that friction around a UK listing has really changed and the advantages are coming out in the UK side. For us.

Vhernie: And so, I'd like to ask a little bit about that, because you've mentioned the reform so clearly in the second half of 2024, we saw the new listing rules come out. And those had an aim of making London a more attractive listing venue and also provide wider access to capital for a wider range of companies as well. So, Mike, what are your thoughts on those changes? And are there any specific changes you'd like to highlight for the audience and their implications for issuers?

Mike Wisson: Yeah. So, I mentioned obviously the kind of aim to reduce the friction in the listing process and for listed issuers, I think is clearly helpful and provides kind of further impetus. We talked about the market trends and the regulatory reform hopefully should provide another tailwind for London in that regard. So look, as we said, it should provide more and certainly easier access for, let's say, earlier stage issuers. You know, we've removed the, you know, three year revenue, track record that was previously a requirement that that should open the door. You know, when you think of companies in the maybe in the pharmaceutical space, which may have looked to the US in the past, maybe that will kind of open the door to maybe look at London and the UK as a home for. Clearly for pharmaceutical is another industry that I think we would say is, is a real strong point of the UK economy. So, you do have this, as I said, flexibility around the new rules. And, you know, if you're a listed issuer and maybe when you were looking at, a listed environment and then undertaking further M&A, if you have a buy and build strategy, maybe there was some friction there with the need to produce, you know, circulars and get shareholder vote on some things, in contrast to maybe to an overseas listed issuer or a private issuer. So, I think those things clearly are helpful. I think some of the clarification around just having one segment is just helpful for market participants. You kind of know what it is and what it stands for. You don't have that kind of what does that mean? And what is you know, the old standard segment means I think that is that is absolutely helpful. It will be interesting to see how some of the other reforms around maybe dual class share structures take on a lot of profile. We haven't seen so many of them, but it be interesting to see if the market once those if there are found led businesses and they want to explore the option of using the dual class structures which, you know, again looking over the other side of the Atlantic, people kind of do use. It'll be interesting to see if the market kind of adopts them. Here is something that really makes the difference in driving some, you know, IPO issuance.

Vhernie: Okay. Thank you Mike. And Sarah, what are your thoughts on on the changes as Mike mentioned transformational M&A there as well. And what are you seeing in terms of clients attitudes now that these new rule changes are in?

Sarah: I mean, as Mike is saying, there's been some really quite transformational changes to the listing regime and where we're still seeing these in the prospectus reforms, which will hopefully make raising capital quicker and cheaper to do.

But thinking then back to transactions and credit to the FCA for this, they've really changed how it was. So previously you need to have shareholder approval for a significant or major transaction or for a related party transaction. And that obviously puts a cost. It puts a burden on management's time to prepare for those meetings, to prepare all the documentations around it. And, that could then make it not competitive for, in a bid process when you're sort of facing off against private capital, if you have to have a condition as part of your sort of acquisition that you're putting forward to have that shareholder approval.

I mean, in terms of how this is actually impacting, it is obviously still early days. These reforms came through last summer. We are seeing a number of disposals. There are a few acquisitions, but it is certainly, I think, very helpful for companies to have that flexibility to be going into acquisitions more quickly. I have more certainty around that they don't need that shareholder votes, but it still does require thought. It's something that needs to be thought about for these transactions, in some cases even earlier in the process, because there is content in announcements that has to be put in there. It does require thinking, does require management time for it. So, it's not one of those is a free for all. And you can’t just say whatever you want. But it certainly is helping companies.

Bod: So yeah, I think we are seeing, the fruits of that huge reform that that has been undertaken and driven through already. So, we mentioned Canal+ earlier, the CEO there was explicit that, he wouldn't have listed that business in London without the reform that's, that's taking place. But from our perspective, the sort of the really exciting bit just starts now that we've done a lot of the work around regulatory reform on what we would call the supply side reform, what we really need now is the capital reform and the pension reform, to get more capital flowing through that, that newly revised capital market. And that's really our focus now this year and going forward.

Vhernie: And the pension reforms are anticipated and there's been quite a lot of publicity around that. There's a piece coming back to the investment bankers. So Alex and Brian, what are your thoughts on the further changes that we need to really boost the London markets?

Alex: I agree with with Bod that there's, you know, there's no doubt that these types of reforms are going to be, if they come, massively helpful. But I think it's also important to take a step back and say, where are we today? We still have a much bigger domestic asset management base than anywhere else in Europe. So for companies thinking, do I listen, you know, London or do I list somewhere on the continent? Maybe Amsterdam, as a neutral venue which got popular for a period of time. You do you have a much bigger domestic, investor base here. And I think these reforms will help.

But even when you think about, you know, Brian referred to earlier the outflows that have been seen. Yes, that has been happening. The scale of the outflows has reduced. And actually, there has also been a lot of money going back to asset managers from the fact that you have a lot of dividends going out. You've had a very significant share buyback pace going on in the UK as well, and you've also had a lot of M&A. So I think it's important to when we think about these reforms to I mean, I completely agree. We absolutely want to and it's going to be important for for getting capital flowing faster and more issuance. But the UK and, and the LSE is still in a good place versus the rest of, of Europe.

Vhernie: Okay. Very helpful. And and Brian, anything else to add to that.

Brian: Well, I think we've made some very good progress on the supply side of things in terms of the new listing regime and all those rules. I think that's been very positive progress. And I agree with Alex that, you know, we have a brilliant domestic investor base in the UK. But I think in terms of maybe turbocharging that there's probably more we can do on the demand side of things going forward. So, things that are often discussed are stamp duty. For example, you pay 50 bips in the UK, you're almost penalised for buying a UK stock versus a foreign stock.

I think we could absolutely look at the ISA structure. We were quite keen on the British ISA. I think, you know, we should be using our tax incentives. You know, it's not about penalising people for buying foreign stocks. It's more just incentivising people to buy domestic stocks. So we quite like the British ISA. And I mean a stat that I find remarkable is this about £750 billion and ISAs, of which there's 300 billion sitting there in cash, which to me seems a bit crazy.

And I think perhaps there's something to do there in terms of maybe incentivising that 300 billion. Imagine if we put even a fifth of that into equity markets. What the impact might be, and various other tax incentives, we previously had tax credits around UK dividends. Maybe there's other things we can look at there and generally stimulating retail interest to whether it's through the ISA or whether it's through financial education.

I heard the other day that's 40% of DC pension contributions don't know what their payout is going to be from their pension, for example. And if people aren't informed about these things, I think we can assume that they're probably making the wrong risk decisions for their pensions as well. So, I do think there is more we can do on the demand side.

Vhernie: Okay. That again, very helpful and some really good thoughts around the type of changes that could come in to help promote the London markets. If we then move on to Success factors for an IPO and how issuers can achieve a successful IPO.

I suppose, well, should we start with Mike? From your experience, what are the key components of IPO readiness that companies should be prioritising ahead of launching an IPO?

Mike: Yeah, the million dollar question; The successful IPO. You know clearly there's some externalities you cannot control. And you know that's just life. And I think even when companies embark on these processes, they go in with their eyes open that that you could get through the journey and the market might not be there. I think what we say to companies control what you can control and put yourself in the best place to hit the window that you're going for.

And key to kind of hitting that window is, is being prepared and doing that kind of readiness work upfront. Really taking a holistic kind of view to it all. And I guess three kind of things that I probably would, would kind of call out today, I guess, stakeholder alignment, you know, making sure you're all on the same page.

Because if you go down one route and you find that your board or your kind of own founders aren't on in the same place, it inevitably leads to problems further down the line. So, make sure your all aligned on the key things we've talked about market; which market, when, what route.

You know we talk about private equity. Well, a lot of the transactions or IPO processes we see these days are run as a dual track where you have a private and a public process being run in tandem. So really make sure you get a stakeholder alignment sorted upfront. Identify and probably try and tackle those long lead time items. They always take longer than you think and you don't want them to become the gating item. If you get all the way through and you want to hit the go button and you realise you haven't got some of these kind of things in place. And it will be, some of the things we often see is around 'do I have the right finance without being an accountant of finance team?’ ‘Have we got the right people with the right capability?’, ‘able to produce the information that we need to be a listed issue of us as a private issuer?’. So, really kind of tackle those long lead time items.

And the third thing I'd probably say is the numbers. I would say as an accountant, but really having reliable numbers and being cognisant of what numbers you're going to give to the market and investors as you go through that process. Because the thing you don't want to happen is putting a target out there that you then don't deliver when you when you become public. Because that is one surefire way to lose the trust of the market.

So really making sure that you're there, what kind of numbers are there, you're ready to have all the supporting data you need, and they're really robust. And when you're doing those forecasts, you're really cognisant of what you're saying to the market.

Vhernie: And Sarah, I guess from a legal perspective, of the areas that you tend to advise companies on with regards to priorities for IPO readiness.

Sarah: Well, unsurprisingly, I'm going to completely agree with Mike that, preparedness being prepared is absolutely critical. As Mike mentioned, there is generally a short window of when you can successfully launch your IPO. There's a whole number of different factors. You're trying to get all these stars aligned to really go, and you just want to make sure all those pieces are there.

So once you've got that moment, you're ready to go for it. And that can take 6 to 12 months out. So it sometimes can take longer. Those long lead times that Mike had said. So it's thinking about what are those going to be and preparing for it, so that once you get to those critical moments, the business can focus on the key parts of it, which is going to be your equity story; so your business plan and into the equity story, making sure you can then get the right valuation for your business so you can successfully launch it. And you're going to need that earlier than you think. That starts in those early look presentation you're having with initial investors right the way through the different documents to your prospectus, to your key announcement and then obviously onwards for it.

We like Mike, spend a lot of time with companies in earlier stages, pre that 12 month we do red flags looking at what might be key issues, key roadblocks, restructuring, looking at their share ownership for that governance, simple things that we can put in place to help companies and it's kind of come back to bandwidth of the companies as well. There are, as you can hear, a fair amount that needs to be done and we can't clone ourselves. So making sure that there's the right team set up so that the managements can succeed, run the business well, get the numbers right. So which kind of be critical? Have a successful IPO for it. And keep the accounting teams functioning I think is always very critical for these.

Vhernie: And Brian, from an investment banking perspective, what do you think are the kind of critical factors for a successful IPO? And what do you focus your clients time on, particularly when you're introducing them to prospective investors, etc.?

Brian: So preparation aside, and look, we're currently in very, quite volatile markets. And you know it's really important you get the preparation done so that then when it comes to the ECM side of things, you can monitor windows and, you know hit the optimal one in terms of things that we're specifically focusing on right now, I think getting the marketing program right yeah is critical.

So that's meeting investors early. That is making sure you meet the right investors. I think that's also giving them the right information. I think, one difference we're seeing versus maybe the 21 cohort of IPOs that investors are looking for more information earlier in the process. So, they're telling us they want to have more detailed early look presentations and maybe more interaction with them with the syndicate desk.

Vhernie: And what do you need to get in place as a company ahead of those early look meetings? Are there particular things that you advise your clients on that you need to make sure you've got it right ahead of those early look meetings?

Alex: I think it's first impressions are important. So, I think you need to do those meetings at the right time. It's important to get in front of investors early, understand how they are looking at your story as well. You can refine your story, but I think you want to be really well rehearsed for those meetings because first impressions matter. And to Brian's point, having a deck which allows you to lay out the story, but also investors like to get to the point they're busy people. They like to focus in on the detail as well. So I think you need to have the information, you need to be prepared, have rehearsed, have thought through all the Q&A and have the information in the packet to actually, to be credible on all of those points as well.

Vhernie: So lots of different areas of preparation to think about and in ensuring that companies speak to all the right people early enough that they've got a plan of action for each of those areas.

Thank you very much to all of you as our panellists today, for all of your very insightful contributions, I've jotted down a few key takeaways as we've been speaking. And I suppose my key takeaway is that it definitely feels like there's momentum towards 2025 being a much bigger year for IPO's on the London markets. It's also clear to me from the discussion that London has very deep pools of liquidity and the investor appetite for the right companies, whether they be domestic or international.

But I've also taken away the messaging that it's important to start preparing early in order to put your best foot forward, to attract the right investors, maximise your valuation and be ready to seize that IPO window when the macroeconomics are more positive. If you have any questions around any of the topics that we've discussed today or an IPO is more broadly than, please do feel free to get in touch.

Thank you all for joining us for our discussion today. And we look forward to companies seizing these opportunities in the coming months.