How to Empower... Black Swimming Association

Transcript

Trigger Warning:
Katy Bennett: Before we start with this episode of the podcast, we'll begin with a warning. This episode discusses the topic of swimming and water safety and includes references to drowning and death. This can be a really challenging topic and although the conversation will be around ways to reduce risk, we want to ensure you're aware of your own wellbeing and sources of support. Please only join this podcast if you're feeling well enough to do so.

Katy Bennett: Hello and welcome back to the How to Empower podcast. Today we'll delve into the topic of water safety and swimming empowerment, while shedding light on the barriers within the African, Caribbean and Asian communities. I'm delighted to be joined today by Danielle Obe, chair of the Black Swimming Association, the BSA.

Danielle Obe: Thank you for having me Katy.

Katy Bennett: Thank you so much for being here today. And Lois Geraldo, Senior Associate here at PwC.

Lois Geraldo: Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Katy Bennett: Now, before we dive into the questions, and we've got lots, I wanted to set the scene for our listeners as to why we're talking about this topic today and some of the startling statistics underscoring the urgency of this conversation. Every two minutes somebody tragically drowns worldwide. Disturbingly, this burden is disproportionately borne by Black and Black-British children, with a drowning rate of 6.46 per million, compared to 1.87 per million amongst their white British counterparts. In light of these statistics, our aim is to equip you with knowledge and foster awareness to address these issues. So Danielle, thank you so much again for joining us today. Could you please start by just telling us a bit about your story and what the BSA is, how it started.

Danielle Obe: Thank you again for having me, Katy. I am Danielle Obe. I am a mother, first, a wife, and my background is management consulting, and my inroad into the world of aquatics actually began when I was trying to find a solution to keep my daughter swimming because as a family, we believe that being aquatically active and safe around water is important for you to keep children swimming. And we started our kids swimming from when they could hold their necks up high at three and a half months old. I'd always assumed that that was enough, that because they were swimming, they were water safe. And then came the tragedy really of Costa del Sol on 24th December 2019, where a family of five acquainted to me went out to Costa del Sol on holiday for Christmas holiday and three of them came back in body bags. Mother and daughter stood there at a service of songs, their lives completely devastated and changed forever. I am a family of five. I do have three children as well. When I think back to hearing the news of the demise of a 52 year old father who jumped in to save his 16 year old son and 9 year old daughter from drowning in a pool on holiday, on Christmas Eve, it just sent chills for me. At the time we lived in London, in Greenwich, and my back garden was the river. I had a riverside property we lived in for 17 years, and up until that time, literally five meters from my kitchen island was the river. And up until that time, I had never been aware of what I was unaware of. We’d lived in the property for 17 years. I didn't have a float; I didn't have a buoy; I didn't have a ring. I hadn't even given my family the water safety advice of what to do if they ever saw someone in trouble in that river. I had just assumed that because they were swimming, they were safe. So I was unaware of what I needed to be aware of. My children and my husband learned about what to do if you heard the fire alarm, how to cross the street. You know not to speak to strangers, cyber bullying. But I'd never given them the fundamental skill that could have saved their lives because we're exposed to that danger every single day.

Now, why is this so significant? 19% of the population who live within one kilometer of waterways in England, above the national average of 14%, actually are from Black and asian communities. And yet Black and Asian communities are also the communities who do not have reach to vital water safety, education, and swimming and are not that aquatically active from a swimming perspective. So I was one of the 19%. Pre-covid, we know that 95% of Black adults didn't swim, 93% of Asian adults didn't swim. We don't know how many cannot swim or could not swim, but we know that they didn't swim. 80% of Black children left primary school where swimming is part of the curriculum, unable to swim, and 78% of Asian children. I was one of the 95% who didn't swim regularly, right. And at that point I thought, my goodness, there is so much that I need to learn. And that's where my life changed because I thought I will take my background as a management consultant and really start to delve into these issues to understand why, why a mother had to hold onto her 14 year old daughter and really hang onto a prayer as they pulled her husband out, and her 16 year old son out and her 9 year old daughter out, and none of them made it. That was the day my life changed. That was the day I had my own awareness of swimming as a vital life skill and that there was a fundamental difference between swimming and water safety. And for me, yeah, that was it. I think the day I came home and asked my son after the Costa del Sol incidents, I said: ‘if you see someone in trouble in the water, what would you do?’ He said ‘I would jump in and save them.’ I literally thought I died a thousand deaths. Because as a mother, I hadn't equipped my son with what he needed. Actually, the fact that he could swim made him overly confident that he would get into that water and save someone. Again, it's similar to the story we heard of Jimmy, the young man who tried to save a woman on London Bridge and he lost his life. The vital importance of water safety and drowning prevention, and also understanding swimming, basic swimming as an intervention is critical for all communities.

Katy Bennett: Well, I think that must have given everybody listening chills, because I'm a mother too, and just thinking about that and asking those questions, and as you say, we think about crossing the road, but that point on safety or water safety is so powerful. Lois.

Lois Geraldo: Hello.

Katy Bennett: I'm not sure how you're going to follow that.

Lois Geraldo: I'm not sure either. So I think just by circumstances, I am now part of the 5% that do regularly swim. I was lucky enough to be in a situation where I almost had a situation where my family came back in body bags and I was one of them. And just by chance, the lifeguard was able to come back to the pool in time and save us by a pole, not by jumping into the water, actually. I think there was a lot of animosity that surrounded my family because at the time, there was another swimmer in the pool who didn't save us and left the pool and left us to our own devices. Because I got a bit excited and swam to the deep end in my arm bands and my mom came to save me, realising she couldn't swim and grabbed onto me who was floating. So myself, my sister, and her all started drowning. And like I said, the lifeguard got back in time. But I think there was a lot of anger around ‘why didn't this woman save us?’ and I think actually just going on my own swimming journey and going on my own water safety journey led me to understand that actually maybe she didn't have the capability and knew that her jumping in would have risked her own life as well and that's why she kind of left the pool. So I think for me as someone that now swims, I'm very passionate about, number one, bringing that education around water to the Black community and ethnic minority community more broadly because of the stats that Danielle mentioned, but just also general things - I remember being in university and you know, water kind of became a safe space for me. It became a space where I was fearless, you know, and I could do whatever I wanted - and my friends were finding that weird because that's not normal for people like us. People like us are meant to be afraid of the water, you know, and just wanting to conquer that stereotype and that mindset to actually think about, okay, if you overcome this, what more in life could you overcome? And that will link into something I’ll touch on a bit later. But yeah, thank you.

Katy Bennett: Thank you. And I love that message. Definitely want to come back to this really almost empowering story of water as a place of peace, and space, and being yourself. But before we do that, I really want to make sure we kind of zero in a bit for listeners on the difference between being able to swim and water safety. Because, you know, that was a really clear part of what you were saying, that they're not necessarily the same thing.

Danielle Obe: The Black Swimming Association was set up just over three years ago to ensure that there was a bridge between the sector and ethnically diverse communities who are considered or from a stereotypical perspective - classed - as hard to reach. The reason I fundamentally would like to start from there before I answer your question is: before the BSA, there was no organisation that was looking at water safety and drowning prevention, particularly for, you know, Black and asian communities. Now, the work that we do is not inclusion at the exclusion for some, but inclusion for all. So the stats that I gave you about the 19% and the 14% is according to the Canal and Rivers Trust. 61% of families who live within one kilometre of waterways are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. So take away ethnicity, we're talking about a fundamental life skill that every human being, every person, every family should have, right, regardless of social standing, regardless of other protected characteristics. And that's really what the BSA set out to do. Our vision really is to diversify the only sport that is also a life skill i.e. swimming. And our mission is to ensure that everyone, especially people of African, Caribbean and Asian heritage, have got equitable access to water safety and drowning prevention, and that they feel safe in, on, and around the water. Not just the physical safety, but also the mental and psychological safety. I mean, Lois said earlier, and when you go out on holiday and you're doing things, and people looking at you thinking, well, you shouldn't be doing this. There's that mental strength and safety that comes within being around an aquatic environment because water is life at the end of the day. So when we did set up the BSA, we set it up to look at exactly what was happening. Why did we have the statistics of 95% and 93% and 80% and 78%? But fundamentally, if we take a step back, drowning prevention is critical for the entire world, according to WHO, accidental deaths - I say underestimated - but 372,000 people die by drowning every year. Of the 372,000, 90% of those are from low income countries and middle income countries. Let's call a spade a spade - they're from Africa and Asia. So we're already disproportionately affected with the drowning statistics and figures. When we started working with the BSA, diversifying the sport, it was around not having that representation poolside at elite level. But when we delved deeper, we found out that actually we're dealing with communities who are not even acknowledged and recognised. If you think about a number line, most of the sector when we talk about learning to swim or swimming as a sport, are at one, two, three on a number line. But when you speak to communities, and I put my hand up, we're at minus three. I shared my story earlier being unaware of what I needed to be aware of, Not having the education myself to say to my son: ‘If you see someone in trouble in the water, you don't go and rescue them.’ You know, we lived there on the Thames, like ‘who do you call when you dial 999? Who do you ask for?’ I didn't have that. That is water safety. That is knowledge that every community should have. So when I talk about minus three, minus three is being unaware of what we need to be aware of. Minus two is then looking at that lack of water safety on the number line. You know that minus one, then we start looking at aquaphobia, transatlantic journey, you know, or cultural beliefs and limitations. The zero point on the number line is not even seeing ourselves around water spaces or not even feeling that we should be there. So we don't see the Learn to Swim programmes, we don't see the swimming coaching or careers and the health benefits of rehabilitating through water. Then we get to the one point where the sector is at ‘learn to swim’. So in the last three years, that's really what the BSA has done and that's what we continue to do. Our focus is on moving most of the community, regardless of ethnicity, from that minus three towards that one. But the first thing we have done as an organisation is to ensure that these communities are recognised, acknowledged, and that we start to work with them and create programmes of awareness that reach them to be able to move them to where the sector is at, at a one point.

What is the difference between swimming and water safety? We did our research recently called ‘Our Swim Story’. When you ask people from the community: ‘can you swim?’ A lot of people will say, ‘yes, I can swim, but I don't want to put my face in the water.’
‘I can swim, but I can only swim where I can stand and feel the bottom of the water.’
‘I can swim but-’
‘Can you swim 25 meters? - Mm. Yes.’
‘Okay. So standing in the room or sitting in the room where you are, can you kind of give me an idea of where 25 meters are? - Mm.’

But when you ask someone: ‘if you fell in water accidentally, would you know what to do?’ Or: ‘if you saw someone in trouble in the water, would you know what to do?’ It would be a ‘yes’ or it'd be a ‘no’. It would not be a ‘yes but-’ or ‘no but-’ because one fundamentally is water safety knowledge and the other one, ‘can you swim?’ is open to interpretation, and so there really should be some work done around qualifying what does it mean to be able to swim. From a water safety perspective, know who to call if you're in trouble in water. If you are going to travel whenever you get on the plane, you know you're given the safety information. Part of that safety information should also be, especially when you're flying out to where you're going on a beach holiday, should be the numbers to reach if in trouble in the water at any point in time, right? That is basic water safety. That doesn't even need to be put forward in the pool. So that education is critical. Now swimming, in its very basic form, is a life skill. Which can then, when you're looking at your strokes and performance, you can then move that on to not just being a recreational activity. So it moves on from water safety to being a recreational activity, from a recreational activity to being a sport. And from a sport that one would then compete with, but it's really graded in that regard.

Katy Bennett: Thank you. I know you talked about that you're an inclusive organisation. It's about raising the bar, but clearly there are communities where there are barriers. I'm sure it's a very complicated set of reasons but what are the biggest barriers you see that are creating that gap?

Danielle Obe: There are significant barriers that preclude Black and asian communities from engaging in aquatics or swimming and water safety as it were. One of them is actually reach, right? So we're working with the RNLI on a campaign called Float to Live. The very first time I heard about Float To Live, I was thinking about taking my pink flamingo, my inflatable, to the beach and I remember at the time they said ‘no, no, you don't take a float to the beach’. I'm like, but you said float to live and they replied ‘no, it's a technique’. So right there, although lots has been spent on crafting and designing this particular campaign which is brilliant, Float to Live, it's lying on your back like a starfish, head back, and just really sculling through the water until someone can save you. I'm aware of that now because I'm aware of it. I've had to learn. But I first thought about my float. So that message didn't reach me with the right impact and relevance. If anything, it would have caused me to put myself in danger. So when we started working with the RNLI, the first thing we said was, how can we Float to Live when we fundamentally believe we've got big bones and so cannot float and cannot swim because we've been told that or heard that through the years. That then led us to doing physiology research, which will be published worldwide really to take away that whole stereotype and myth about, you know, Black bones being heavy and people unable to float, right? So that is one of the barriers, the ability to float and I've also learned that some people float easier than others and that floating really has nothing to do with whether you've got a permanent tan like me, or not, like you, Katy. You also have hair. 33% of respondents in the ‘Our Swim Story’ said, especially from Black communities, that hair was a barrier to their engaging in aquatics now or even swimming. Why is that the case? We as Black women spend, I think, six or seven times more in hair and hair care than the average caucasian woman because our hair is just different and it takes us a lot to get it done. To then get into the water thereafter is almost, it’s a no-no. You also have the issues of chlorine in the pool. Now, chlorine will damage any hair type, but because of our type of hair, it dries our hair out even more. And chlorine to the skin, you know, it exacerbates eczema. And we also have the cost barriers, financial barriers, lived experiences, people who've had near drowning experiences, or parents who are not even aware and who will say to their children, like, ‘don't go near the water and you wouldn't drown’, but we live on an island, so there's a lot to unpick there. One of the insights we found as the BSA is that, you know, our communities, Black and asian communities, need to have equitable access to water safety, education and awareness.

Katy Bennett: And Lois, I'm interested in your experience because it sounds like you have experienced some of those kinds of limitations and expectations on swimming as a Black woman.

Lois Geraldo: Yeah.

Katy Bennett: But also you've found a space to kind of challenge those?

Lois Geraldo: Yeah, I would definitely say I'm not that old, but I think a lot has evolved in the last ten years, and I probably started swimming about twenty years ago, and when I think in those initial ten years, things were quite difficult because of the things Danielle just mentioned. Like for example, I would wear my hair in braids. Braids are a lot thicker than the typical hair, so I would not have a hat that fits my head. Then when I come to my swimming lesson and don't have a hat, or I'm wearing a shower cap, maybe because there's nothing else that fits, having been laughed at, or having my teacher not understand why, for example. Or because my body type is different when I'm floating, having a teacher not understand that actually I am floating. It just may look a bit different to when my caucasian counterparts are floating. Or for example, different things like with my eczema and maybe having to wear more to cover my body when I'm swimming to protect that and also having teachers who wouldn't understand that at the time. I think Danielle mentioned something about the environment, and I was privileged enough to grow up in an area in Essex where swimming was a normal thing. But for people like me, to swim in that area was very strange. So I think definitely there was a big piece there, a lot of the things I went through being an educational piece for the people in the area, for the swimming teachers in the area, and conversations with my parents to actually let the teacher understand it’s not just that Lois has been rebellious. There's a reason for this, you know. And I now look, I have sisters who are about ten years younger than me and they can swim freely. They have hats that can fit their braids, they can wear costumes that cover their body, you know, and there are actual creams that help to manage the chlorine for eczema and things like that. So I think witnessing that evolution has also been empowering, but I think sometimes the hard things in life, going through them and being used as an educational piece and now seeing the other side of it, it's rewarding, you know, it's rewarding and I think it's a big part of why now I'm such a passionate advocate for swimming, for our community to be honest.

Katy Bennett: Brilliant. Thank you. It is great to hear that things are changing though it sounds like there's still a long way to go. I was looking at this question and I was thinking, ‘I don't know if I want to ask this question?’ because it says, ‘why should organisations care about swimming and water safety?’ And I kind of think, well, hopefully everybody as a human should really care about this having heard this story but I suppose why should organisations engage in this? What's the role that companies can play in supporting your charity, your message?

Lois Geraldo: Do you mind if I talk a bit to what we've done together?

Danielle Obe: Yes please.

Lois Geraldo: Then you can talk more broadly about it because I think it'll be a nice segway.

Katy Bennett: (Jokingly) Are you trying to disrupt this podcast?

Lois Geraldo: Absolutely, not at all, but do you understand where I'm going to go? (laughing)

Danielle Obe: Absolutely. So, I'll jump in for thirty seconds.

Lois Geraldo: Okay, cool..

Danielle Obe: So, companies and organisations are made up of people and they deliver services and products to people. So that's who we're talking about and everyone needs to care about this. Everyone needs to be aware of this, what they can do, and how they can support the change that's required. I'm glad that PwC is one of those companies and Lois is going to tell us all about it.

Lois Geraldo: (laughs) Yes. So I was privileged enough to be able to go on a journey with 16 of our ethnic minority colleagues in the firm and we were privileged enough to partner with BSA and to take our colleagues through something called the Blue Hour Programme. What the Blue Hour Programme does is, it's a five week programme that basically teaches the fundamentals of swimming and water safety. There is a lot of being in the water, but there's also a lot of educational pieces around the things that Danielle mentioned earlier in the podcast. Now because unfortunately my swimming level is a bit more progressed, I wasn't allowed to physically participate. But I think witnessing it, not only the educational piece, but the emotional journey for participants and building relationships with them and understanding the fears, and a lot of it actually being a mental barrier, you know, ‘I think I can't float because that's what I've been told’ and then seeing them overcome that. But then on top of that, now seeing how, through work, because they've conquered that fear, they actually feel more fearless at work. They're able to approach their work with a new sense of ‘I can do this’ and resilience that they otherwise wouldn't have had. I think the programme has really empowered, I would say all of them, just from conversations I've followed on with them months later and had, and even me seeing them go through it, I feel empowered to say, look, maybe there's more organisations can do, you know, within the community and with organisations to bring out the best in their employee populations and workforce so that they can not only do better in water and have that conquered, but even in their jobs, in their work with the products and services they sell.

Danielle Obe: Absolutely. Absolutely. So ‘The Blue Hour - Together We Can’ is the name of the five week programme. And it's actually designed for those at minus three to move them towards one and further aquatic pathways. So it's designed to take them really through that awareness and education. It's not a learn to swim programme, it is actually a water safety introduction familiarisation programme that leads them onto aquatic pathways where at one point they can learn to swim. Or you have a few of the people who have actually become teachers and come back into the programme because, I mean, when I started, I initially thought I needed to be a fish, to be a swimming teacher. But no, it's just that passion of wanting to see people overcome those fears and Joe is in there day in and day out with the team and the stories that we hear are so touching. From a woman coming in five weeks, overcoming her fears. I mean, a lot of participants, you can really see them shaking around the water and a lot of them are in tears, some of them are swearing. But the sense of community, knowing that there are other people right there holding their hands who understand, and are I'm willing to go on this journey with them. One of the feedbacks I picked up on the PwC piece was the sense of community, that none of the sixteen knew each other but now they've got a bond, they've got a bond. And it's also the mental, psychological strength that you get from it. And we've had participants come through there dealing with cancer, thinking ‘I can take another day’. We've had participants come through there and a woman thinking, ‘you know what? I feel empowered. I have conquered this. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go home and tell that abusive husband, this is it. That's the door.’ You know, you have people who come in and who are thinking ‘I was so aquaphobic that I couldn't walk across a bridge and so there are certain parts of, you know, London that where I was locked out of because I wouldn’t walk on a bridge, I wouldn’t get on the bus.’ And you have others who had mental health issues who all of a sudden came out of their own. What am I saying? Water is life. Water is empowering. And everyone, all communities need to find their own place in the water. And that's what we do with the BSA. Now with those in PwC who've taken up the Blue Hour together we can, and even with your skills, Lois, we want now to have a blue water together we can community within PwC, because as a BSA, we can't be everywhere. But we believe in planting the seeds of oak trees, and out of the group of sixteen, we might have you pair up with two others and start delivering that programme within PwC's other employees and other partners. Now, Katy, something that is really significant that everyone must be aware of is, when we talk about water safety and drowning prevention, a lot of times the sector assumes it's low socioeconomic groups who need that. But the work we're doing is showing that it's the prince and the pauper, it's everyone through society. I mean, the work we did with PwC, with partners. I mean, you know, middle class people, those we're doing in communities. But when you get into that water, the programme is the same because it's a leveller, you know. It doesn't matter whether you drive a Bentley, you know, or you drive an incredible Ford or you take the bus. When you get in there it's the same fear, you know, it's the same fear that we all need to conquer as a group. It's the same message that is empowering, you know. For me it could be taking on another day after having a lot of stress because I know I can get into the water, to another woman it could be being able to take her child swimming. To a father it might just be the son being able to do rookie lifeguarding, then lifeguarding, and earning some money to help the family. It's limitless, the possibilities are limitless. It’s empowering, it's emboldening, it's inspiring.

Katy Bennett: That's what's really coming through. I think as you said earlier, there can be a tendency to think of swimming as a sport or, you know, a keep fit activity. But actually as you say, it's about safety. It's a life skill. But also it can be this wonderful kind of source of mental health and resilience and fun.

Danielle Obe: And opportunities. I mean, I would never have met Lois. I would never have met you Katy. I would never have had the opportunity to partner with PwC. I remember saying to Eunice the other day, I said PwC is now in the business of water safety. And she looked at me and I’m like, yes, you are. You know, because you've now taken that on board and you know, potentially as an employee benefit for all employees who are that minus three. But also, you know, from associates to senior associates and partners, you know everyone. When you get into that water, you are just you. It strips off all of the titles and labels and it just gives you that opportunity to be, right? I would never have had the career opportunity that I have now within aquatics if I hadn't engaged.

Katy Bennett: So I'm sure a lot of people listening are thinking two things. One is, ‘oh my goodness, I don't know about water safety. What do I do? Where do I go?’ You've got a website. Does that have resources on? Where would you recommend people start their journey?

Danielle Obe: So, the website is in construction, but https://thebsa.co.uk/ you will find some useful resources or send us an email contactus@thebsa.co.uk. But Katy, every time I get the opportunity to speak to people, the first thing I ask them is ‘if you were in trouble in the water, would you know what to do? Would you know how to float to live? If you saw someone in trouble in the water, inland water, so a canal, a riverside, what would you know to do? Do you know who to call? Do you know to find something that floats? Do you know to definitely not try to attempt to rescue? And if you found yourself along the Thames and you saw someone in trouble in the water as well, when you dial 999, do you know who to ask for?’ Really simple. If you are along the Thames, a river, up and down the country, and you see someone in trouble in the water, when you dial 999, you ask for the coast guards. And if you were at the beach as well and someone was in trouble, you dial 999, again, you ask for the coast guards. Don't swim alone, and even those who are strong swimmers, we also find that they get in trouble in the water and they drown. It's not about how great you are at swimming, it's just about being water safe and water aware. So when you're going swimming, don't go alone. And if you're going out to beaches, ensure that they're lifeguarded beaches. If you're travelling abroad, know what those emergency numbers are in the country where you're going. Right, and also if you're going to wear a life jacket, a buoyancy device, know that they're very different. Right? A buoyancy device and a life jacket are different and they function differently. But let's bring it back home. If you saw someone in trouble inland, so we're really surrounded by water, who do you dial? You call 999 and you ask for the fire service. It doesn't add up, but in inland waters, it’s the fire services who come out for a rescue in trouble in the water.

Katy Bennett: Thank you for that. And I think we'll have some of that information on the website as well. If someone's listening to this and just thinks ‘I want to help’, what can they do? How can they help as an individual?

Danielle Obe: They can support the work of the BSA. The BSA is a charity and we only get to do what we do through donations that we receive and funding. So as an individual it's important from an awareness perspective that you are aware that we do have this issue and next time you go anywhere near the water or pool and you look around and you don't see a lot of people from Black and asian communities. You should have that, ‘aha!’ moment and think, ‘what can I do differently?’ Now, when we co founded the BSA, we had a lot of people reaching out to us to ask how. And we said, you know, be an ally, talk about the work of the BSA. Write to us at contactus@thebsa.co.uk. Volunteer your expertise: marketing, comms, media, any area. I mean, it's very welcomed. But also in terms of donations, we need the donations to show what we do. But more importantly, speaking to large organisations and corporations to consider doing what PwC did. You know where you look internally at how you can deal and empower Black and asian communities to be water safe and to enjoy the benefits of aquatics by adopting the BSAs ‘Blue Hour - Together We Can’ as a programme that can be delivered within an organisation.

Lois Geraldo: A more detailed case study on that will follow soon after this podcast.

Katy Bennett: Oh, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you and hopefully, I'm sure you're going to get lots of organisations interested because I think it's such a powerful message. And actually hearing the positive impact that it's had for our colleagues is amazing.

Danielle Obe: There's actually one thing Lois mentioned and the sixteen who went in to do the Blue Hour - Together We Can, funded by PwC, there was also a pay-it-forward for a community who could not afford to come on the programme. So PwC did one and paid for one, which we then served to young girls around period poverty in Greenwich. So there is that as well.

Katy Bennett: Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that, so nice to know. So we always finish our podcasts by asking our amazing guests what makes you empowered? Both of you have told me amazing stories about the way you've been empowered and taken action. And I would just, you know, really love to hear your thoughts on how you feel empowered every day.

Lois Geraldo: I guess I'll go first. How do I feel empowered? I feel empowered by laying in my bed at the end of the day and knowing that I've had an impact, positive impact, and the things I've done during the day, though mundane or not so mundane, have served a purpose. I know that when we do something that serves a purpose, we don't always see the end of what that is but I think there is a knowing that comes with being part of something that is greater than yourself. So I think that's how I feel empowered.

Danielle Obe: When I get home every day, especially when I've had meetings out and I see my two daughters and my son and I know that my husband, myself, and my family are safe. That is just that feeling of wow. But it's not just my family - having this podcast, knowing that people who hear this would perhaps be more water safe than they were before, that is empowering, knowing that I am part of that change. Knowing that we started an organisation like the Black Swimming Association, BSA, that is growing, and that is tackling a fundamental issue that no one else as yet seems to have looked at, especially for our communities in the UK. Now we've inspired a change in the sector and there's a lot more being done and spoken about and there's a lot more to do. So each time I think about where we are as a BSA or where I am as an individual, knowing that I am helping to save lives, that is empowering.

Katy Bennett: Thank you, and there we have it, another episode of the How to Empower podcast series. This has been a great conversation and I want to extend my appreciation to our wonderful guests, Danielle and Lois, for their valuable contributions to our discussions. To all our listeners, thank you for tuning in, and don't forget to keep sharing your own stories and inspiring others on social media using the #HowToEmpower hashtag. Until next time, stay safe and stay empowered.