How to empower... breaking down the stigma of the menopause
Series 4 Episode 2
In this episode, host Katy Bennett speaks to Ann O'Neill, CEO and Founder of Adora Digital Health, and Rachael Hampton, Partner at PwC, about their experience with the Menopause. Ann shares what drove her to develop the Adora app to help other women, and Rachael shares her experience of perimenopause, what organisations can do to support women, and why she is hopeful for future women.
Transcript
Katy: Hello, I'm Katy, host of the How to Empower podcast. This episode we'll look at how to empower you on the major issue that is menopause. Ann O'Neill, CEO of Adora Digital Health joins us today and will eshare her thoughts on menopause and tell us a little bit more about her story and understanding. Rachael Hampton, Partner at PwC, joins us to give her insight on menopause and share her story. Now Ann, starting with you, you share your story experience with menopause. You mentioned perimenopause, but for anyone not familiar with this term? Can you explain it in a bit more detail?
Ann: Yeah. Hi Katy. Thanks very much for having me here to talk about this very important subject. Yes, you asked about the perimenopause. Well, it's the bit really before menopause, it's the start of the menopause journey for women. And it's not a term actually that has been used that much up until very, very recently. What we find is that women are really uneducated about perimenopause and confused about the symptoms that they experience. And what's really happening is that the body is losing oestrogen. The ovaries are starting to misbehave, so some women will find they get very light periods or very heavy periods, or for some months no periods at all. The body is starting to adapt and get ready for the menopause. The age that it starts is roughly mid-40s, But for some women, it can be under 40, and for some women, about 5% of women, it can be under 45. And therein lies the problem. One of the most important things that I want to say about the menopause is you'll have 1,000 women and 1,000 different journeys, 1,-00 different experiences. And that's really, really key to understanding how we can support women through this. My story is actually quite a common story from talking to lots of women. I realised that I wasn't very unusual. But I was surprised at how unprepared I was, how uneducated I was about the symptoms that I had, and how difficult it was for me to get any help. My GP very, very helpful, but didn't actually understand that the symptoms I was experiencing, which were not the common ones, were actually due to drop in oestrogen and due to my perimenopause starting. As I started to talk to other women, I realised that it's pretty much everyone's experience. They come into mid, '40s, uneducated about the perimenopause, unaware and not really sure where they can go for help. That's why I ended up starting Adora digital app to try and be part of the solution to that.
Katy: Thank you so much for coming today to tell us your story. It's really appreciated. And Rachael, could you share your experience with the menopause and why you wanted to start talking more openly about it?
Rachael: Absolutely. I think it’s exactly how Ann said. You know every story is different. And like most other women was quite unprepared. I actually started perimenopause when I was 40. For any woman turning 40, that's a big milestone as you say goodbye to your '30s. But to then start to experience symptoms, I didn't know what they were, I couldn't explain them. Didn't for one minute think it was a menopause type thing. Because that's happened surely when you're 50 plus in my head. It was quite a surprise.
And actually it was quite a journey because I felt quite let down by my body, which is a silly thing to feel because actually my body is just doing a very natural thing, it's just moving into its next phase. But it took me some time to recognise that's what I was struggling with then knowing that I wasn't the typical age thought, gosh, I'm going to really struggle getting help here because there isn't a test that you can just take and say, oh yes, you're perimenopause.
It's not as easy as that. I did, I’m a bit of a science buff, so I did quite a bit of research on my own, but it was hard to come by, Ann, as you say, I went to the GP armed with some frankly facts and figures, and poor guy really didn't have an awful lot of choice if I'm totally honest. He said, oh yes, I think you are. And I was like, well, yes, that was the only answer you could possibly come up with. We talked about the options and what you could do, what you couldn't do. But he was probably less clued up than I've been. I found that was a familiar theme, that I had to keep being one step ahead of everyone else in order to be able to feel really empowered to make my own decisions about the choices of options to help with symptoms of perimenopause. I suppose following up on the second question, why do I feel it's important to talk about? I haven't talked about it really for about six years, so I've just given away my age. But I feel important because women are leaving the workplace. I think it's 900,000 people have left the workplace because of menopausal symptoms. Frankly, that's such a loss to the economy. It's such a loss to the individual. It's such a loss to us as teams, all of that wealth of experience has just gone. But actually, I think it's an economic problem, not just a women's health issue. I don't want people to feel fearful about moving into menopause. I'm going to try and be brave and talk about it. Ann’s already been doing lots of that, which is brilliant just to open it up and make it a very normal conversation.
Katy: Yeah, It sounds like for both of your stories, a real theme of not knowing that much and not really knowing or being able to get the help you need. Which feels like a perfect introduction to the Adora app.
Ann: Lovely segue.Yeah, it's true, it's just confusing. And GP's aren't actually trained in medical school on menopause in any great way, that's changing. And there is a shift and it's going to be part of the medical agenda now. But it means you've got both sides. You've got women who don't know what's going on and primary health care not really equipped to help women at this stage. That was the problem that I saw anyway. And I thought, okay, how do I help women? My core drive here is how do I empower women? How do I give them the information they need? How do I give them the confidence they need in order to try and manage this themselves? Or at least go into primary care armed with facts and figures and information so they can have an informed conversation with their GP. So the Adora is a personalised menopause companion app. It uses conversations AI, it’s pretty clever. The more you share with the app, the more advice we can deliver to women. If you want to know about HRT, can deliver the information on HRT. If you want to know about lifestyle changes, we can deliver that information. It's not up to the women to wade through tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of literature or social media or Google searches. We deliver information to her at the time of need. By doing that, the woman's more informed, She's better educated, she has more control over what's going on. And we can signpost her to treatment and to solutions much more rapidly. Which has an impact on her health outcome, her wellbeing and her health. We can also talk about the taboo symptoms of menopause. Some of the things that are really difficult to talk about, for example, incontinence or the sexual health issues that women sit and tend to suffer with. What we've found in the Adroa app is that women are able to find out about those symptoms and what they can do. And sometimes it's actually really simple to get a solution. It can be an over the counter product. Other times it might need gynaecological input. But at least they can go to their Dr. then with the information they need printed out on a health report. And that takes that embarrassment away and that barrier away. So they're moving into a treatment more quickly.
Katy: You mentioned the taboo, and I suppose my reflection, I'd be really interested to hear what you both think. Clearly there are certain symptoms I can understand you wouldn't want to talk about with everybody, but it sometimes feels like people don't feel comfortable talking about this at all. Or don't feel that they're empowered to say, you know what, this is my experience and that's okay. And I can work with it and as you talked about, Rachael and I can thrive and I have amazing things to bring to the workplace. Does that resonate?
Rachael: It does, I think there is a fear, not just from women about talking about it, but a fear from people asking because they almost don't want to know the answer. I think people immediately think they're going to go to taboo issues, if you will, or the more difficult conversations where actually they probably just want some understanding to start with, let alone get into the medical ins and outs. But I think the more that we do talk about it, I think of it as just another medical problem. You talk about your covid symptoms quite easily. You talk about a temperature you might have with covid. And that's something you've talked about around the office quite a lot. But we can't talk about hot flush because everyone looks at the floor slightly. Well, why can't we talk about a hot flush? It is just essentially a very quick feeling of hotness, which is like a temperature. When you think about it like that, there shouldn't be any reason why we can't talk about it openly, even if the discussion is pointing you to something like Adora app where you've got all the more medical information in there or whether it's an understanding about, gosh, it's about I'm having trouble getting prescriptions for what I need. Do you need some time out to get that right as you're going through the stages of addressing all those initial symptoms to start with and making those lifestyle changes, and sometimes you do need a bit more leniency in how your day might run or your start time, your finish time, etc. All really natural conversations to have. They don't need to be embarrassing, they're just factual. I'd encourage us to talk more around the things we want to talk about. The things are a bit more embarrassing. That's fine. You don't need to talk about that. And no one's going to open up about that from day one. Just talk about the things that's going to help someone adjust to a new start of their life.
Ann: I think the good news is it is changing. There's more awareness. There are more conversations, there's government policy, there's more social media chat. There's more headlines in the papers, and there's more policy in the workplace when I started Adora. Of the first things I did was I rang up 20 companies and I said, what's your menopause policy? I think any of them had one and that was only three years ago. That's all moved forward. It's encouraging that the menopause is being discussed and that will reduce the sense of embarrassment that probably does still exist. When I started this, it was talked about in hushed tones, and that's not the case. And that's just three years. I liken it to what happened with mental health as recently as 2016, mental health was still taboo in the workplace and it's completely normalised now. And the policy and support that employees need exists pretty much in most places. I think it's the same with gender, health issues such as menopause. The conversations are started, policy is coming, the government have a taskforce. It's all moving in the right direction.
Rachael: I think that just one of the changes that we at PwC’s made is by actually listing menopause or symptoms as one of the reasons that you can be off sick. I know it sounds silly, but by tracking these, you get a sense of the scale and what's going on and support is needed. Then I just want to come back to your question Ann, just a second. In my experience, and I know it's not the same for every woman. But after that initial, goodness, this is what's happening to me. And then getting on top of the control of that, actually once I have that control, and it is about giving women control back of their lives. Frankly, I've got a great life. I've got so much to add, I've got so much to give, both at home and at work. I really feel like, I think it's like another stage in my life. It's certainly not the end. It isn't something to be fearful of, it's definitely something to be embraced and manage it in the way that's best for you, which is not going to be the way that is best for me or your sister or your friend because we're all different human beings. At the end of the day.
Ann: I just wanted to pick up on that point. Rachael, I'm really pleased that PwC have that reason for absence because a lot of companies don't, so that economic impact is still not being recorded properly. And that will make a difference when employers understand the cost to business, the cost to GDP, so that will make a big difference in how we treat this. It's great your company is doing that because not everybody is. I agree with you about I think there's fear amongst younger people who are looking at noise, I suppose around this on social media and worrying. I absolutely completely support what you said. It is manageable if people understand what they're dealing with. If they're getting to advice quickly and easily, then they can get back in control of their symptoms and feel more like themselves, which has been a struggle. I think I read that it takes about two years for women to actually understand that they're in perimenopause, which could be two years then of not feeling like themselves and withdrawing socially, of having some of the emotional symptoms of menopause Because 50% of women do experience things like heightened anxiety or low mood. And they can get back on track. Because if we, if we're really serious about gender parity and women at the top, we have to understand their health needs, their specific health needs and we have to support them. And we can't lose women at this age, sort of 45 plus when for many of them they’re at their peak powers.
Rachael: Absolutely. And equally, we as a society spend a lot of time on equal parenting and return to work. And then to think, gosh, in 20 years we're not then putting as much emphasis on keeping people in work purely because of health concerns or as you say, some of the emotional symptoms that come with it. Which are, again, completely manageable, but needs an understanding that are facts. And as you say those decisions, empowering women to make their own decisions, essentially.
Ann: We've talked to hundreds of women over the last three years. It's really saddening when you speak to somebody who could be a senior nurse in A&E or could be a teacher or could be somebody who's got a professional background and they've stopped work because they haven't been able to get the right help. It's such a loss. It's a loss for women socially. It's a loss for women financially to quit work. If they want to be in the workplace, we must make sure they get the right support.
Rachael: It's simple things. I'm sorry, Ann, I know you're coming in, I'll stop in a second. It's simple things. I'm pleased to say that. I don't struggle with that because we have a wear what you want policy, a dress for day policy. If you're in a uniform type of job, or you've got a particular safety kit that you need to wear, then often that isn't made of natural fibres, it isn't the most giving material that actually is going to help support some of those fluctuations during the day. That's actually really simple to fix, it’s really practical and a really practical conversation to have with an employer, I should say, about some of them. The small switches and small changes that need to be made.
Katy: You've given me the perfect segue, to what I want to ask you it's like we're on the same level here which I work for PwC too, I know we've done loads of amazing things and we've really thought about this. And you've given a few examples. Of all those things, are there one or two that you really think have the biggest impact and maybe that other organisations, big or small, could learn from.
Rachael: Yeah, I've mentioned simply having the tag, which is a really easy change on sickness days because it gives legitimacy to the female, right. And that's actually really important. They haven't got to pretend, it's something else so that's legitimacy plus an economic measure of exactly how many hours they're losing. And therefore, what do we need to do to help support women better? I think that's really key. But also some of the forums and chat groups that we've created, again, giving that sense of permission, not that permission needs to be granted. But giving people a safe space for people who have joined because they want to talk about this. To not only talk about things but learn. Because this is all a knowledge journey. None of us ladies had any education about this as they came through school or through any kind of education system. We all have a fairly zero based knowledge about this, which is terribly shocking if you think about it. For example, I did attend one of the chat presentations up in my local office, actually, up in Birmingham. The lady who came to speak there was so knowledgeable about menopause and perimenopause, that enabled me to then take that to get better for me, better treatment than I currently had. Frankly, if we hadn't done that, I wouldn't have known. I wouldn't have probably pushed myself forward to make sure that I got the best treatment. Yeah, I think those changes are really important, but then I think there's probably more we can do. I think I can say that, in terms of just opening the conversation up as you said. I really like the comparison to this is like the mental health conversations that we weren't having seven or eight years ago. I think I'm hoping that that will quickly pick up from a menopausal perspective and they become much more open conversations that we start to have.
Ann: Yeah, and I think you said earlier just thinking practically about how you can support women, because every workforce is different, and jobs are different, so what's right for one woman isn't going to be right for the next. But opening up the conversation, having policies, so it's legitimate. Yes, This is important to us as a workplace. Those things are the starting point and they're really important. Having places for women to get support, having training for line managers. Because I think pretty much everybody wants to do things, right. They want to have a respectful conversation. They don't want to pry. They don't want to go into areas that they can't help with, like medical issues. And there's no need for women to reveal things that they don't want to relieve. All of those things are important. But I also think it's important to look at what the innovations are in digital health services. For example, apps like Adora app, there are other apps as well. But when you've left the building, what is supporting women with the symptoms when they wake at 3 in the morning with the night swear or when their anxiety is heightened. What are the things that a workplace has on hand for those women? It's not just about training, because women are in menopause for a third of their lives. We started this conversation talking about perimenopause. That's the time when it can be most troublesome for women because it's when their hormones are quite chaotic. It's like what have you got in place for women to support, so they can help themselves? I think that's what I would say to employers.
Katy: We've talked about employers but I suppose I'm also wondering what advice would you give to a listener on what they can do as an individual, whether that's a man, for his partner, or his sister, or his mother. What would you suggest?
Ann: My experience again, is men or partners really want to understand what's going on. Because it's not just about women, the menopause, it's about everybody around them. I've had conversations with men who have talked about their wives emotionally being distant at this time and what's going on. Just explain to them about how many women experience emotional symptoms. Partners definitely want to help. They definitely know something's not quite right and they definitely want to support and be helpful. That's all about education and then understanding and having conversation in a way that works for that couple. It also impacts on children and teenagers. They also notice when their mums aren't quite themselves, so we've had lots of conversations about that and we had a young Bristol University student go out and do some research and it was really interesting to hear how the kids had picked up, how mum was different at home or just wasn't herself. It is something that impacts everybody, and we do all need to get educated. I would use that word really. Education, on what's going on and how you can help people around you.
Rachael: That's right. I think because of the age it happens. It often happens when a woman has got both family commitments and elder care commitments, plus a job, as it were, or a career, so being able to understand what would actually help you. You didn't sleep well for the last week actually, can I take some things off your plate whilst you just get a nap? There are some really simple things as a good partner, a good son, or a good daughter could actually help with very practically. I think if you're having the conversation in a workplace, it needs to be around things that are practical. Again, do you need to leave a bit earlier today? Do you need to come in a bit later? Do you just want to work from home for the next couple of weeks because you're settling into a new routine, for example. They are all very practical conversations that I think are helpful, but then also to be guided by the female. Don’t assume, as with any problem, don't assume what's needed, just ask and make yourself available. It might not be something today, might not be something in six months, but there might be something in 18 months that might come up that you still want to feel like you can have an open conversation about.
Katy: I think they're really helpful, practical examples because just thinking earlier on where you said, well there's a lot of focus on when women have children and return to work. I think I’m in my mid-30s, I have a toddler and I think when I came back to work, everyone knew I wouldn't be sleeping well. Of course they'd say don't worry, but no one would say that. It wouldn't think about that exact same issue with sleep for women later in life. And that's just a great, really practical example which can turn a switch to say, oh yeah, I get that now.
Rachael: Absolutely. As Ann says that lack of sleep could be because of night sweats, it could be because your hip bones absolutely ache for no apparent reason. It could be because the anxiety has woken you up and actually, you can't get back to sleep and you've got a billion things running through your head. It's not even as simple, it isn't just take a paracetamol, fine, it's not that simple.And I think that's the complexity of this. All we're all about empowering our listeners, for those listeners out there. If you could give them two things, as an employer and as an employee that they could really do to support.
Rachael: As an employer, I would say if you've not been having a conversation about menopause, then you need to start. That could be as simple as running a focus group. Let's understand what would help your employees, what they might already been doing. Just open the conversation up would be a really practical thing. And then that will lead you into next steps in terms of what then is appropriate for you and your workforce. Because every situation is different, I think that would be my first call to action. If you're not doing it, start. Then as an employee or a colleague of someone who might be potentially going through perimenopause because you might not know that, it’s like anything else, just be a really good ally of theirs. If you notice someone feeling a little bit off in a meeting, offer them a glass of water, take time out for 5 minutes as a group. Don't make it about the individual. Make it about a group timeout as well as simply if they’re just not quite themselves, just have a conversation. It doesn't need to be. WYou must be in the perimenopause. It could be just “I notice you weren't quite yourself.” That would just open up a conversation. I'm sure they would really appreciate just even the nod that they've been noticed that they weren't quite feeling too good. I think that allyship is really key.
Ann: Yeah. It's not that I don't have my own ideas, but I agree with Rachael. I think she's absolutely spot on. If I'm an employer listening and I haven't done anything, I would definitely start the conversation. I would also probably tally up how many women around the age of 40 and then on do I actually have in my organisation. Because when I call companies, they often don't have a clue, they don't have the data. That's one of the first things I ask them to go and work out, and they come back and they're surprised how many women they have, over 40 in their organisation. I'm not surprised because it's the fastest growing demographic in the workplace. But they often are. That's when they start to think more seriously about it. That can lead to, I think, policy to legitimise this is really, really a good starting point as well. And then I think an employee, I think if you don't have a support group in the workplace, start one. If there is one, maybe join it. Because I think it's great to just share stories and get that validation and understand what you’re going through, probably most of the other women are going through, women are brilliant at supporting themselves. Even as I said at the beginning, it's a very personalised experience, menopause, but it's a collective experience. You can get a lot of support from other women.
Rachael: I think that's great actually. It's really quite a bonding sisterhood type of situation because every single woman's going through it. Yeah, it is. It's a definite plus that comes out of it, that sisterhood bond that you get with others that are of the similar age.
Katy: Well, as we draw to a close, I have one question that we're asking everybody in the podcast this season, which is what makes you feel empowered. I don't know who wants to go first. It's a tricky one because we're looking for something amazing and insightful. And I know you both have it. Because you've made me feel empowered today. Thank you, Rachael, for that positive story. I know I will be experiencing menopause in the future. To hear you talk about the positives and how it can be empowering is amazing. But what makes you both feel empowered?
Rachael: I think that I feel empowered because I have got blessed with a wonderful family. I've got a wonderful career both behind me, but ahead of me, I've got loads more that I can do and want to do. I'm lucky enough that in many ways I can talk about these things quite openly. Maybe I'm not shy enough. I should think about that. I do feel empowered to do so much more with my life. I don't feel like I should in any way be apologetic for being here. Because just because I'm in perimenopause or in any way done as it were, which is awful, it’s a terrible expression that people say. You'll see a lot in the press that when women get to a certain age, they feel irrelevant, they feel that they're ignored in society. I think it's up to us to put that right. We're not here to be ignored. We're here with lots of years of experience, some really valuable life lessons. And we've got so much to give, that we're going to give it.
Ann: Yeah, Really good question. I suppose empowerment comes from within, doesn't it? I think for me I started Adora when I was in my perimenopause. I had a big break from my early career, came back to the workplace after eight years of being at home with my children. Found it extremely difficult to find senior flexible work because at that stage, believe it or not, employers just weren't offering that. I knew I had so much more to give. Two or three years after that, when I realised how bad and how underserved women were at this stage of life, it became my mission to do something about it. And I suppose I've been empowered and I am driving this forward really because I don't think it's right. I think that women should be in the workplace if that's what they want to be doing. I think if they're concerned about their health and their wellbeing and they don't easily get the help and the support that they need, they can't really be that empowered. Let's make sure that's all sorted out and then let's sit back and watch what they can do.
Katy: I love that. That's brilliant.
Rachael: I feel like we've got to call to arms to change the world, which is amazing.
Katy: Well, that brings us to the close of another episode of the How to Empower podcast series. This has been a great conversation and I'd like to thank Ann and Rachael for their time and for sharing their stories and thoughts. To you, our listeners, if you'd like more support, you can visit the Adora website or speak to your GP. Thank you so much for tuning in. And don't forget to subscribe to keep up to date with future episodes.
Related content
Contact us
Follow us
