How to Empower... Financial Wellbeing

Transcript

Katy Bennett: Hello and welcome to the first episode of Series five of the How to Empower podcast series. Thank you so much for joining us and I'm looking forward to exploring another great range of topics over the upcoming series. Before we jump into the topic of today's episode, I want to do a quick call out to the Workforce well-being team here at PwC, who have helped us put this episode together as part of their battling the blues initiative, encouraging our employees to get outside and be distracted from the pressures that traditionally come with this week in January. So welcome to those who are new to the podcast and for those tuning back into the new series, welcome back. On today's episode, we're joined by Marcus Read, a director in the workplace financial well-being team at Close Brothers Asset Management and PwC's very own Char Srahan, who is a senior associate in our internal inclusion, culture and well-being team. Hi both.

Marcus Read and Char Srahan: Hello.

Katy: Thank you so much for joining us today. Could I ask you both to introduce yourself and a bit more about what you do on a day-to-day basis, Marcus.

Marcus: Thanks Katy. Well, hello everybody. My name is Marcus Read. I'm one of the directors of workplace financial well-being. I've been in the financial services industry for about 30 years now. And over the last 15 to 17 years of that, I've been working in employee engagement and financial well-being, as it's now known, trying to help individuals take control of their finances. I've been with Close Brothers now for about nine years and the kind of main part of my role is to help employers to design, implement and run successful financial well-being programs for their people. Great to be here.

Katy: Welcome, and Char.

Char: Hello. Lovely to be here. I'm Char and I'm a senior associate in the well-being team and we sit within the inclusion, culture and well-being centre of excellence at PwC UK. And my job on the day-to-day is basically to be in the weeds of the Be Well Work Well programme. This is PwC's kind of unique approach to workplace well-being. The purpose of be well-work-well is to help our people feel empowered and supported to integrate well-being and bring their best selves in support of the new equation at home, at work, and everywhere in between. We operate with six dimensions of well-being, that's what we encourage our people to kind of lean into and take care of. And of course, one of those is financial being, so it felt really timely to kind of come along today.

Katy: Brilliant. Thank you both so much and welcome. So in case you've not guessed already, we'll be exploring the topic of financial well-being today. Financial well-being is becoming an increasingly important concept given the cost of living crisis, the budget and the social pressures around the holiday season. Yet it's typically a taboo subject in organisations and there is often a lack of support for employees in this area. Today, we will look to offer some advice and tips for our listeners on things we can do to manage our money better or just explore things that our listeners may have missed over the past few months. So, with that in mind, let me start by just asking Marcus, well, and Char, what does financial well-being mean to you? And why is it so important in today's context?

Marcus: As I've already alluded to, I've been working in financial well-being long before it was known as financial well-being, I would suggest, for some time now. And it's incredibly important because not only does it form a massive part of everyone's lives, managing our finances, it's also a cornerstone of our wider well-being. As PwC do and recognise that, getting your finances right is a fundamental part of managing your own wider well-being and me working in that industry is a great opportunity to kind of spread the word and help inspire people. Becoming financially well requires a few things to happen. So firstly, you need to gain control of your finances, manage your money and budget and everything else that goes with it. Secondly, the second step is then trying to build a cornerstone of protection so that you are prepared if the shocks, those financial shocks that come along, as we've already alluded to, are things like the holiday season. Then you need to set down your plans and goals and aspirations and try to understand how you're going to achieve them. And then ultimately step four, that allows you all of those previous three steps to become financially well. Now, a very long-winded answer, but in how, in terms of what it means to me is trying to really raise that awareness of, for employees, for colleagues, to understand their benefits, understand how they play with their wider finances for them and their families, and then ultimately allowing them to join the dots between all of that and making them financially well. So it's a massive part of what I do, but also what I believe in.

Char: Absolutely and I think all of that, obviously I would echo. I suppose I wanted to put on a few more lenses from a very, kind of, well-being perspective. So I guess at the top of it, the definition to me is about kind of feeling secure and having the freedom to live life without that constant worry about money that you mention there, Marcus. I guess it's not about just covering your basic needs, but also having the peace of mind to enjoy life, chase your dreams if that's what you want to do. And I think given today's kind of economic up and downs from the rising cost of living, uncertain markets, having that sense of financial stability is more important than ever. So a few things I wanted to talk about when I think about financial well-being is firstly that kind of generational piece. I think that's really coming to the fore at the moment. And it's about how different generations and also different intersections, which we’ll come on to, experience financial literacy very differently. So if we look at older generations like baby boomers, they often have more straightforward paths to things like home ownership, stable pensions. Whereas on the flip side, we've got millennials and Gen Z who are dealing with a very different kind of climate, there's student loans, there's gig economy jobs now in a much trickier housing market. And these differences really highlight why we need that financial education that close brothers provide and this kind of speaks to the specific challenge that each generation faces. And then I also said that I wanted to talk to intersectionality. And this is basically, in short, how different aspects of identity like race, gender, socioeconomic status, influence one's financial situation. So, for example, if we take women or we take people of colour, they will often face kind of barriers such as pay gaps, limited access to financial resources, and these challenges are even greater for those that belong to multiple identities, marginalised groups or intersections. And I think we need to acknowledge these intersectional issues so we can work towards creating financial systems that are as equitable and inclusive as they can be. And then last but not least, as is my job, I want to speak to the kind of mental health part of this. So when you have money worries, unfortunately, you are more likely to live with anxiety or low mood, and it just feels really heavy. That stress starts to build up, and it can really weigh you down. So when you start to feel in control of your finances, just as you said, Marcus, that weight starts to lift and you're able to focus on what truly matters to you. So again, a real tangent there, but that's what financial well-being means to me.

Katy: Thank you both. And I'm sure that will resonate with everybody, I think. As you say, Marcus, maybe it's not quite a new word, but something we're thinking about in this way more and more, but actually when you get boiled down to what it is, everyone's going to go, yeah, I see that. And I think that intersectionality point again makes a lot of sense, part of this is very personal. Maybe that's why it often feels uncomfortable to talk about our identity in lots of different ways, where we are in our life. So, I think I've spoken about this before, I have a young child, I'm pregnant right now, I'm thinking about taking leave, some of that may be not being paid, the cost of childcare, which is very significant in London. There's all sorts of different things and in different moments in our life, we experience those differently.

Marcus: Yeah, for sure.

Katy: And I guess at the same time, I'm extremely aware, as I think everybody is, that the cost of living is rising and just really interested in your perspective, whether that's personal or what you see talking to others around what's changing for people. How is it impacting their daily routine and their lifestyle to be in this kind of growing cost environment when perhaps wages are not necessarily keeping up?

Marcus: Yeah, it's a great point, Katy. And I think, so I try and come from obviously from a corporate perspective in the fact that we deliver financial well-being, but also as an individual that has a family and has to manage the cost of living rises just as everybody else does. And we've seen it impacting us now for some time. I hate to talk about the pandemic, but that's still kind of post-pandemic. I guess if that's the phrase, had a massive impact on people's lives. We've seen global conflict. We've seen political change. We see volatile stock markets and everything else going. What does that mean? Well, that effectively means as an individual and as a family that there's so much uncertainty out there. And that creates worry and fear. We see our, if we're lucky enough to have some disposable income at the end of the month, we see that shrinking, don't we? Because obviously, bills are going up. We know that rent and mortgages are probably the highest outgoing that we have every month. We're seeing rents going up. We've seen lots of change in the mortgage market. So, as these things increase, as the kind of pressure on our weekly, monthly pay packets continues, we see any of that disposable income starting to shrink. And then it's then that loss of control piece, that's step one that I mentioned earlier. How do we maintain that pressure? How do we not allow that to leak into our mental well-being, our mental health, and ultimately have the confidence, I guess, to be able to talk to people and voice those issues to try and get as much help as you possibly can, whether that's through your employer, through the services they provide or obviously through family and friends.

Katy: Yeah, absolutely. I kind of want to go into that piece around kind of things feel much harder, much more context, much more ambiguous than they have before. And actually, I saw a really interesting article about the growth of this kind of doom spending phenomenon, especially in Gen Z. So we talk a lot about doom scrolling, this kind of response to everything feels a lot. The world is very different. We've lived with a perma-crisis now and a poly-crisis, I think is a word for it, for five years. And actually what Gen Z is are doing is doom spending. So where they feel deeply kind of pessimistic about politics, a climate emergency, kind of the residual effects of COVID, they are simply spending even though they've got less money. It's much harder to get house and all of that stuff. But it's a kind of avoidance technique. It's a kind of not facing the situation. I think that's a really interesting impact of kind of how things have changed.

Marcus: It's really interesting, actually, because it's something that we kind of know, I've known was there for a while. And it happens in all sorts of different ways, doesn't it? Especially when this podcast comes out, it's going to be, we're going to be coming out of a hopefully really joyous and happy festive period and holiday season. but I think if you've got your finances wrong in the lead up to Christmas and maybe you've overspent, maybe you've enjoyed that kind of the entertainment, that's a little bit too much, you spend a little bit too much on presents or whatever it may be, and you've come out at the end of all of that, and you come into January, which I don't know if you feel the same, it feels like the longest month ever, because we get paid, obviously, a lot of us get paid early before the holiday season starts, and then we come out at the other end of it, and it feels like a nine week month, doesn't it? So we get to that point where some individuals will think actually, well, the damage is done now. I might as well just crack on and carry on spending and worry about it in January's pay packet or February's pay packet. So it's a worrying perspective, but it absolutely does exist. So we need to try and stop that, don't we, as much as we can?

Char: And I think that's, there's a lot here about kind of deferred gratification. So as tempting as it is to spend, spend, spend, or kind of try and keep up with people socially, even if that's out of your budget, trying to do better for your future self and plan accordingly. I heard an interesting analogy about this, this idea that, oh, well, I've spent loads now and I'm in my overdraft, I might as well continue. And the example was, well, if you dropped your phone on the floor and it smashed a bit, you wouldn't then keep stamping on it and crushing it. You'd try and kind of claw back what you've got. So thinking about it, it's never too late to take that control and try and make some slightly better decisions, much easier said than done, of course.

Katy: Yeah, thank you. That makes a lot of sense. And I'd never really thought about it from this perspective, but often the new year, people use it as a chance to change and a chance for some kind of hope. But I could see that, whether you're doing dry January or eating healthily or whatever, you can start on maybe not the first of January, but the second. But I could see a really kind of negative cycle of you say, right, I'm going to be more prudent, I'm going to save, I'm going to be more careful. And then my credit card bill lands in the middle of January for the December. Yeah and so you already feel like you're on the back foot and that's really hard. So to try and find some, if not quite positivity, some suggestions for our listeners, have you found any creative ways to save money, to cut costs, to kind of think differently, that might help?

Char: I'm happy to jump in here. I loved prepping for this question. I don't know if it's the Gen Z within me having to kind of adapt and overcome, but came across some ideas, which I really want to share. So first of all, is having a swap party. So this means kind of instead of spending or buying new stuff, getting together with your friends or your family and maybe bringing things you don't use anymore, clothes you don't wear, and everyone gets new stuff and it's a real win-win. Also that digital detox piece, so trying to get out there and do free activities, it means time away from your phone, which I think in the bleak month of January can be much appreciated. We talk a lot about, kind of, comparison being the thief of joy, so stepping away, getting out there, free museums, low-course, local events, etc, etc. Skill set sessions, I really liked. Skills share sessions, that's a real tongue twister. So friends that can knit or cook or maintain cars or do up a bike, whatever it is. Sounds corny, but actually learning skills off each other is a really nice thing to do, and especially in January when it all feels a bit flat. Even very traditional, but gardening and growing, so kind of cutting down on a few bills. If you do have access to an allotment or you can start to grow your own stuff, that's a really lovely kind of thing you can do for your spiritual health, your purpose and doing things that feel really nice to you but also making them impact financially and also just challenging yourself with things like transport so trying alternative transport and you know walking with your friends instead of getting a bus etc etc nothing groundbreaking but I thought there's some nice nice builds.

Marcus: That is very creative and I have to say mine is not nearly as creative as your’s Char

Char: That’s okay, we need the balance!

Marcus: Yeah, so obviously you know my lens coming from my background, I wouldn't say it was creative ways to save money, but I think it would be more about encouragement to not be afraid to start to take control. And what I mean by that is in January, we always send out a communication to the employees of our corporate clients, trying to encourage them to start to take stock and start to really budget for the year ahead, not even necessarily the year ahead, the month ahead maybe. And it's really not, it doesn't have to be difficult, I should say. It's been having the confidence to actually sit down after Christmas if you're not already doing it and then start to map out your spend. Really, really simple to do. Obviously, there's free budgeting tools that you can get access to online, but actually just a simple spreadsheet. Just sit down. It doesn't sound particularly glamorous, I know, but sit down, have a look at what you spent over the last month, maybe go back two months and actually start to map it out. And then when you know what's coming in and what's going out and where it's going, certainly next month, when you get into February and when you get to March, if you're doing it every month and keeping a close eye on it, you'll start to see some patterns. And when you start to see some patterns of spending, so maybe it's too much on the Amazon, maybe it's too much on the weekly shop or whatever it may be, that is when you can actually start to make real change to your finances. And those simple things, although not particularly creative, can actually really help.

Katy: Thank you both. really kind of looking at what you're doing and I know a lot of, certainly my bank and I'm sure many, have kind of tools to help you do that now and to really understand where things are going and I love the creative ideas I'm now thinking my husband every year buys me a terrible Christmas present and I'm thinking hmm… He doesn't listen to this podcast, this is fine!

Marcus: This was going to be my next point!

Katy: Yeah, swap shops, interesting. Does anyone like really bad jewellery, maybe? So I just wanted to move on quickly to kind of touch on the new budget. With changes to taxes and public spending, clearly that's going to have a trickle down kind of is going to impact people's own kind of pay packet and costs of things. And so just wondered Marcus, what is that impact? What are these steps that an employee could take to adjust their financial plans to respond to that?

Marcus: It's a great question, Katy. I think everybody was expecting from the budget, certainly the kind of the working, the workers, we're expecting massive changes. And I don't think, from my perspective anyway, I don't think there were massive changes to our kind of weekly or monthly pay packets that are immediately visible. And the reason I say that is because we saw things like the national minimum wages going up, which is good. But we've also seen things like bus fares going up only by a pound, but they're going up. Where we've seen the real impact from our perspective would be the perceived higher earners. So there's obviously some pinches being made to things like capital gains tax. Obviously, we've seen the farmers protesting outside the houses of parliament because of inheritance tax reliefs being changed. We're seeing pension funds or unused pension funds from 2027 will form part of our estate for inheritance tax purposes. But for the majority of people, when you look at your pay packet at this particular moment in time, there's probably not a huge amount of change. However, what we are seeing and what we're going to see, I think, is because employer national insurance contributions were increased in the budget, that's where we're going to start to see possibly some pinch from an employer perspective, which, as you said, Katy, will eventually filter down to the employee. So what I mean by that is because employers now are going to have to start paying more national insurance, that's probably going to put a squeeze on their budgets and their ability to spend, in my opinion. And what it will also do is potentially curtail the amount of pay rises they might be able to give or the amount of bonuses they might be able to get if you're lucky enough to get a bonus. What does that mean to us as individuals and to our families? Well, my counsel to you is don't spend money you haven't got. So if you're looking at your pay packet and thinking actually not much has changed as a result of the budget, I'm still going to go ahead, I'm going to book my holiday, I'm going to do this, that and the other later in the year. Just be mindful of the fact that eventually that some of that might filter down and might put a big squeeze. So try not to book the big holiday as much as you want to unless you've got the money to be able to pay for it.

Katy: Thank you. And I just wanted to move on a bit. So this is coming out in January. For many, there's been a festive period, which might have led to increased spending. But of course, this happens around the year, but we'll be really interested in it if you've got any specific tips for avoiding the post-holiday, post-celebration blues.

Char: I'm happy to speak to this. So I think absolutely make a really solid point and we've already spoken to it at the beginning here. We have a winter well-being campaign at PwC because we really acknowledge how bleak January can feel. Money's low. Morale is generally quite low. You're getting back into your work groove after a break. It's a lot. So I think my response here would always be around self-care. That includes your finances as well. So taking time, as you said, Marcus, to stop, to recalibrate, to think. That's quite gritty and sometimes quite hard to face up to you, but it's for a lot of people a really kind thing you can do for yourself. So in and amongst the other things you're doing to recharge and recover. Also, yeah, just kind of facing up to where you are and allowing yourself the grace to kind of put in a plan that helps you feel better in the long term.

Marcus: Yeah, and I would concur with that. I think it's, as I've said already, it's a you've just come out of a massively expensive time of year. You know, you've terrible weather typically in January, dark mornings, although the nights are starting to pull out by then, dark evenings. And it's just about trying to manage, not fall into that habit of just going out and spending for spending's sake, just to restock, take some time out, do some things that are cheap or free and try and not squirrel away or put your head below the parapet and think it's not there because obviously, we want to try and encourage you to talk about it because that's really important.

Katy: And probably I'm asking this a little bit late for this, for this Christmas period anyway, but thinking to the future and, we've all got different things to celebrate, how do you balance enjoying the holidays, enjoying celebration, enjoying gifting and all of those things with maintaining financial responsibility, especially any more significant financial commitments?

Char: I'm happy to feed in. So I think a big one here is that boundaries piece. So boundaries I think sometimes are only kind of seen as something you have in romantic relationships or they can even be seen as a bit kind of combative and a bit defensive to kind of keep people out of what you're doing. But actually putting in some boundaries, being really clear about kind of what you can afford and what you can't, what you're comfortable with financially is really, really important here. So thinking about, yeah, what your boundaries are, how you want to gently but kindly and directly enforce them. And ultimately, really, really taking note that your financial well-being does come first, and most people will understand if you're making choices that are right for you.

Marcus: Yeah, and I'd also say that it's remembering that life is a balancing act, as well as everything else, your finances need to be balanced as much as you possibly can, and you've got to realise and accept sometimes that you can't do it all. You know, it's about, as you say, Char, boundaries and understanding what you can and can't do, having those open and honest conversations with family and friends to say, look, let's have a month off going to the pub or whatever it may be or, I know we're coming out of the holiday season, but if we're thinking about, presents and birthdays and everything else, shall we skip a year? There's nothing wrong with that and I think what I often find when we're talking to employees and to their colleagues out in the field, so to speak, out in the offices and getting their feedback, is that they often think that the problem is just theirs, that financial balance and the financial security and everything else that they have to think about, actually it's not. You'll probably find no matter what walk of life, no matter what your perceived understanding of your friend or your family's financial position is, quite often they have just the same issues. So having that open and honest conversation and just being free to say, look, shall we or shan't we do this, this year, often you'll get a relieved person come back to and say, do you know what, that's a fantastic idea. Should we skip it this time and think of it, next time or shall we park it to the summer when the weather's a bit better and we can go to the park and have a picnic or whatever it may be, so yeah it's just about having that having that balance understanding that there is a balance to be made and not being afraid to kind of have those conversations I think also kind of staying in your own lane I think it's very easy to kind of compare your situation to others so I for example you know I've got a sibling that's doing very very well for herself she's able to gift the family lots and lots of lovely things. I can't compete with that and I don't want to lean into things like credit cards or the kind of by now pay later routes. So just being really honest and saying, this is my situation. I can commit to a plan later along the line or I'm going to gate something I've put a lot of thought into, et cetera, et cetera, just being really kind of realistic with where you're at and what your circumstances are because, as you say, we're all thinking it and people really honour that if you just say it. It's a really good point. It makes me smile because I always think about this thing that happened to me in my life is we were struggling to pay everybody, to get all the money together to, you know, give all the presents and everything else. And actually, when I had a conversation with my nan, as it was, back then, would you believe, she said to me, one of my cousins actually, lots of money, used to give these fantastic presents, you know, air fryers and all sorts of wonderful things. And this particular year, I said to my aunt, I said, Nan, I'm struggling. Can I just give you something a bit more personal? And when I got, we put together a little photo album, basically, with my kids and everything else and we gave it to her. And she's passed away now, sadly. But that was in her drawer. There was no sign of the air fryers and everything else. So they're the kind of presents, genuinely, that are going to stay, for sure.

Katy: Love that. Thank you. Some really nice ideas then there. And, yeah, kind of a reminder, I guess, that as you say, it's not just about how much you spend. It's the thought and all of the bits around it.

Marcus: Absolutely.

Katy: I guess kind of sticking with this theme, but just thinking more now about the work environment because,there can be pressures to spend at work too, whether that's buying a round of drinks, Secret Santa. I know they're not usually too expensive, but, it's just that one extra thing, team lunches, all of those things that at this time of year, it can be one after the other after the other, and it can feel harder to say no or maybe harder to talk about money, particularly if you've maybe got colleagues who you think might be earning less than you. So how do you manage that?

Char: I think again it's for me that kind of vulnerable communication, just saying exactly where you're at and what's possible for you, maybe even offering alternatives. So if a quite expensive bar has been positioned, could you instead suggest that you head out as a team and do something free outside or bring and share lunch is quite a nice, you know, you could all bring a Christmas break, suggesting just cheaper alternatives instead of a bar, could you go to like a pub quiz, which is generally more interactive. Just offering some other things and always putting those boundaries. And actually, I think it's probably helpful. I've spoken a lot about boundaries, but how do you actually do that? I think it's quite hard. We really banned it around. And I guess at a very high level, kind of step by step, if you do want to have a conversation where you kind of put in a boundary, start by identifying what that is. So communicating kind of what your boundary is, why it's important to you and how you want to communicate it. I think being really straightforward. So if those conversations do come about with your team, it's not helpful to be kind of cryptic or purposely vague. Being direct is usually the most successful kind of way. And last but not least, having a bit of a support system. So leaning on other people that are the same grade as you, they get it. They'll be able to kind of support you or do things that are kind of more low cost. So just being super open. And that also allows you to be really authentic as to what works for you.

Marcus: Yeah. My daughter is going through exactly that right now. She's 21, she's not long into the workplace. She's got a lovely team around her. But she's earning, below average salary. She has an expensive commute into London and back every day. And there are 101 things that she would love to be able to do over the period of Christmas in particular, to go out on the team lunches and everything else that goes with it. But she's been sensible enough to actually have that open and honest conversation with her teammates and just say, look, I can't do it all. I guess that my tip would be to pick out the things that you really don't want to miss out on and then be open and honest enough to say, actually, I can't do the rest. Everybody accepts that. You might be frightened to have that conversation and if they don't accept it, then what's the point? You know, move on. But most people will accept the fact that you can't do it all. She's got a colleague who has literally had to say no to the whole of the Christmas festivities because she's found herself in a bit of debt and she needs to start taking control of it. So it's refreshing to hear that, she's a similar age that she's doing that. She realises she can't afford it because she's got to a stage where it's starting to get out of control. So it just comes back to that initial point. It's just being open and being honest, especially with your colleagues because, they want you to be happy as well, I hope. So that open and honest conversation is a really good first step.

Katy: Thank you. And I mean, this is a theme that comes up throughout topics we talk about, which is actually talking about it, being open, being honest is often the first step and can help so much. And I think it is, I know it's hard, right? I'm not saying this is an easy thing. And particularly, I think culturally talking about money is very uncomfortable. But doing it can really help. And I suppose on the other side, if you hear a colleague talking about it, whether directly or perhaps indirectly, being receptive, being respectful, being kind, and maybe listening back to some of those ideas of things that you could do, that are a bit more affordable at work. So, it's easy to get kind of caught up. of things and plan lots of events and we're going ice skating and we're going to an expensive bar and, not realise the cumulative impact that can have to someone who's on a bit more of a budget. Now, I'm lucky enough to have you both here, but for our listeners who might want a little bit more support to someone they can talk to or some questions they can ask, Marcus, are there some reliable hotlines or resources that you direct our listeners to?

Marcus: Definitely, Katy. I think if we talk to the PwC colleagues first, of course, you have a fantastic firm that you work for, who have lots of initiatives that support you and your finances. As you will already be aware,that, Close Brothers provide a financial well-being program. So there's lots of live sessions that you can attend to get some guidance and some information. You have a whole host of online support that you can reach out to to find out more about your plans, but also help you to kind of raise your financial awareness. And don't forget, there are things like employee assistance programs, what I like to call the sharp, pointy end of financial well-being. So if things are going really badly and you are struggling, don't be afraid to go to your employee assistance program, some really great resources there, helping with things like counselling and those types of areas, not just for your finances, but for your wider aspects of well-being. I would definitely recommend you look out for that. From a wider perspective, gov.uk has some really great resources around the cost of living support that you might be able to get your hands on. And likewise, if you want to speak to anybody about debt or managing your finances because things have gone horribly wrong, there's some great charities. So StepChange.org, they're a great debt charity that offer counselling support. You've got the Money Advice Service, you've got the Citizens Advice Bureau, and obviously you've got the likes of mind.org, which is a mental health charity as well. So my counsel to you is that there's lots of support. Start within, don't be afraid to talk to your payroll teams, talk to your HR teams, find out where you can access the kind of in-house support that might be available to you. And then be sure to look at some of those others and there's lots of valuable help there as well.

Katy: Brilliant. I would just add, I think if you have those resources within your employer, absolutely use them, look for them. I think sometimes people aren't as aware as they might be. So even if you think, well, I'm not sure if we have that, it's worth a look. And the other thing that I've found and seen is that, sometimes things might not be badged as a, this is for financial well-being, but it still can be. So, for example, at PwC, often if you want some tips on how to find affordable childcare, well, you can talk to the parent and carers network. If you're thinking about understanding what government support there may be with your disability, the disability network can help. And so there's all of these different ways to think about it and different people who can help with the specifics of what you might be going through. So I think sometimes one of the things that can stop you talking about finances is the stereotypes or preconceptions you might have about financial literacy and budgeting and, oh, well, I shouldn't be in this situation or, unfortunately, there's a lot of poverty around us saying, well, it's not that bad for me, so I can't say anything. What are the types of stereotypes, preconceptions, assumptions that you've encountered?

Char: I think this is a really interesting question, and I think these stereotypes ultimately can lead to poor mental health, feelings of anxiety, feelings of shame. So it's really important, and I feel really lucky to get to talk about them. So kind of some of them that are top of mind is this idea that financial literacy is solely kind of a personal responsibility. This ignores the kind of systemic barriers that impact marginalised groups. such as people with limited access to financial education resources. And I think people often assume that everyone starts with the same financial tools and opportunities. But as I kind of said at the beginning, this massively overlooks factors like race, gender, socio-economic status and can create kind of significant disparities between that financial knowledge and access. I think another one is that this idea that budgeting is simply an idea of just cutting out luxuries. This doesn't consider, again, the different financial realities that people face. So those from lower income backgrounds might already be living really frugally and still struggle due to the high cost of living or unexpected expenses. And I think additionally, there's a stereotype that younger generations lack financial discipline, without acknowledging that actually millennials and Gen Z are also navigating unprecedented economic challenges like student debt, barriers to the housing market. And I think, as I kind of said, these stereotypes do lead to quite unfair judgments. And this overlooks the kind of complex factors that we have at play.

Marcus: Yeah, I don't think I'd add much more to that really. I think from our perspective when we're talking to employees in the workplace, I guess the biggest one is presuming that someone who's young and might have a lower salary is less aware and has less financial literacy than someone who's older and has a very good salary. That isn't the case. We come across lots of individuals who have got very high salaries and lots of things coming in and everything else who are an absolute mess with their finances. We also meet people you know on the shop floor who really budget very, very well and understand to the penny what comes in and what goes out. So, there are lots of stereotypes. You're absolutely right. But the main one is just to be aware that having the confidence to understand that you're not a stereotype, everybody has their own financial issues, I think would be mine.

Katy: Yeah, thank you. And a good reminder, as you say, we're all individuals. And we have our own challenges but also something I know from my personal experience I get frustrated with sometimes I see it in the papers or people talking about it is this assumption of what is a luxury and actually what is a luxury for somebody might for somebody else be really key to their mental health to their ability to work with their disability to their ability to look after their family in the way they need to and actually you know there's something about not allowing assumptions from other people to be your judgment and having that balance.

Marcus: I agree.

Katy: So how can these impacts, and you've talked about this a little bit, but just to kind of, because as you say, it's so important to acknowledge this, how can that hold people back from getting the help they might need or benefit from?

Char: Absolutely. So I think that's exactly it. When you're experiencing feelings of shame or kind of inadequacy, people believe that financial struggles are solely their fault, therefore they feel too embarrassed to get help or they feel, even uncomfortable admitting that they need help at all for fear of judgment or ridicule. That is never the case. I think, as Marcus said, we're on the How to Empower podcast. Everyone no matter your situation is empowered to seek help and everyone deserves that help and, that never stops. I think it's also important to acknowledge that when someone feels that financial systems are stacked against them due to their background, you might kind of have this idea that improving your financial literacy won't make a difference. Again, this self-perpetuates into this sense of defeat or hopelessness. So again, we need to continue that work breaking down these stereotypes. We need to encourage more open conversations. We need to make financial education more accessible and ultimately lean into a place of inclusion and equity.

Katy: Marcus is doing a thumbs up because that was such a great answer.

Marcus: Fantastic.

Katy: So we've talked a bit about kind of how different groups, different people might experience this differently. And one fact I just wanted to pause on for a second was that kind of socioeconomic factor and how that might contribute to financial strain. So what are the specific challenges that individuals from different socioeconomic backgrounds may encounter?

Char: 100%. So let's do two examples. Let's take women and then disabled people. So if we look at women, they go up against something like the gender pay gap. So on average, we know this, women earn less than men for the same work, which can kind of accumulate over time into significant financial disparities. This gap has a kind of knock-on effect, it makes it harder to save for retirement, invest, build wealth, and this ultimately kind of limits women's financial independence and security. We then think about things like career interruptions for caregiving. You spoke about that earlier, Katy, so women are more likely to take on caregiving responsibilities, whether that's for children, elderly parents, sometimes both. We talk a lot about that sandwich generation or other family members, and these all lead to those career interruptions, reduced hours or even kind of part-time work that can result in lower lifetime earnings or decreased career advancement opportunities even. We then, you spoke to this as well, Katy, that cost of childcare, this is sky high, can be a major financial burden. And then finally, that lack of access to financial education, so it is harder for women to access financial education resources. And again, this kind of impedes financial literacy and confidence in kind of managing money ultimately. So that's women. And then we could also look at someone with a disability. So some factors we might want to consider here are employment barriers. So disabled individuals can encounter significant barriers to entering and maintaining employment. This might be things like workplace accessibility issues, discrimination. And unfortunately, this can lead to higher unemployment rates and limited career advancement again, which, as we now know, has an impact on long-term financial stability. There's also income disparities. So even when employed, disabled individuals might earn less than their non-disabled counterparts, and this might be due to part-time work necessitated by health needs or a lack of accessible full-time opportunities which is so frustrating to say but you know it makes it really really stark. Healthcare and accessibility costs for disabled people so generally disabled people will face higher health care expenses things like medications therapies medical equipment and these expenses related to kind of making a home and vehicles accessible need to be considered too and then finally we look at another factor which might be social support system limitations so or disability benefits can provide that crucial support. They're often insufficient ultimately to cover all living and healthcare expenses and this can lead to financial strain. So it's tricky and as I say there are so many different identities we could talk about and all of those intersections, especially when someone's kind of identity fits into several groups and makes them even harder but thank you for giving that airtime, it's important.

Marcus: And yet another fantastic answer. Yeah, I think the only thing I would add from my perspective and my kind of lens, is trying to make financial education accessible to everyone. I think that's a purist view, but it's absolutely the right view, in my opinion, because we learn in typically three different places. We learn at home, through the family, we learn at school, and we learn at work. Now, obviously, as Char has alluded to, not everybody's in a workplace, not everybody has access to quality financial education and financial guidance and support. So it's about what we can do as financial services providers, but also policy and everything else that goes with it, to encourage greater financial education right from the start of our lives all the way through and making no assumptions that it will just happen naturally because it doesn't. We know financial literacy is poor and we need to try and encourage that kind of conversation, both from policy, but also through the financial services institutions to try and really help everybody get access to that kind of level of support. And I think that feeds in nicely to how differently financial conversations are treated. It's not consistent across families, across schools even, you know, in some families talking about your money really is quite a dirty word, whereas for others, there's complete kind of free speech about it. So yeah, going up against that makes things even harder.

Katy: Thank you both and I think a really kind of helpful reminder of how, as you say, your identity and your background can really change how you think about this and the challenges your face, but also that we can all make a difference by talking not just for ourselves but for our family about this more because it is something I know is true kind of anecdotally but we also see in data is that actually financial institutions themselves are much, feel much scarier to some people. If your parents have never really interacted with a bank or perhaps certain types of insurers, they may not even realise that that's something that you can do. They may see it more as a negative conversation. Sometimes, ironically, it's those who need that support the least, who are the most confident in accessing it.

Char: Great point.

Katy: So finally, as we kind of come to a close, it would be great to just have some tips on really understanding your payslip because I think we're all guilty sometimes we're going, why is it that number? Oh, I just can't face this. So, Marcus, how do you stay motivated to save money, particularly when you get into an expensive season and kind of looking to your long-term goals as well as having those short-term needs and wants and so on?

Marcus: I guess the first thing to accept is that you can't do everything. There's a lot that you need to prioritise. And I go back to literally the start of today's podcast when I talked about the four steps to becoming financially well. It all begins with step one, and that is gaining control. Now, that seems like an easy thing for me to say, and I know it's absolutely not. But it's about kind of sitting down, having an open, honest conversation with yourself, in the first instance, not being afraid to put your head above the parapet. I think that's really, really important because, as we've talked about many times throughout today's, session that we that it's about being confident enough to share that problem, a problem shared is a problem halved as they always say and ultimately if you can be honest with yourself be honest with the people around you and you now start to lay down those tracks by budgeting and looking at those spreadsheets and even if you're pinning it on the fridge at the end of the month and just saying right this is what we've got for the rest of the month ahead week by week day by day if you have long-term goals so everyone's oh I must must be saving for my retirement and everything else or depending on what stage of your career you're at that will be less or more important. So not being afraid to to park certain things if you can't necessarily afford them right now. That's not me telling you to get out of your pension scheme by the way, you should absolutely be in your pension scheme because your employer will contribute but actually it's just prioritising trying to understand what you can and can't do because you can't do it all, and then just kind of set down those tracks so that you know where you need to be next week, next month, next year, and then ultimately the control comes with that.

Katy: I mentioned briefly understanding your payslip. Why is that a good idea? Why should I go away and learn about that?

Marcus: Well, it's Greek to most people, isn't it? You see your pay slip and completely complicated, hieroglyphs to some people, you know what I mean? But it is really important to understand it. It obviously tells you how much you're taking home at the end of the month, but there's lots more to it because obviously if you're lucky to have employee benefits, if you are making those pension contributions, you'll have a tax code on it. We all need to understand our tax code, so you need to try and understand that. But ultimately, it's not an easy document to kind of digest and make sense of. So again, I kind of refer PwC, colleagues to the resources they have available through the financial well-being program, but also for the wider audience, speak to your payroll team. That's what they do for a living and I've never met anybody in payroll that would say, I'm not telling you what that all means. So having that conversation, get to understand that pay slip, get to understand your deductions, and then going back to that budgeting piece, you know where your money's going then and you know what you're getting for it. So by doing that, by getting to understand your pay slip, as onerous as it may seem, it's actually quite an easy document to understand once someone's pointed you in the right direction. So yeah, don't be afraid to speak to payroll. They'll be happy to help, I'm sure.

Katy: So everybody from payroll listening, be prepared.

Marcus: Sorry payroll, yeah.

Katy: But it was really helpful. And, also it's worth remembering that sometimes mistakes happen, particularly if you're with a new employer, if something's recently changed, making sure that your pay feels right and that you ask if it seems a bit strange is really important.

Marcus: Yeah and if you are in doubt, again, that's what HMRC is there for. You've all got your local tax office you can ring them up and again, mostly, they're lovely people and you can have a good, honest conversation with them. They can check your tax code and make sure that it's right, especially as you say, Katy, with changing employment. There could be a month or two where it's all out of kilter. So you need to make sure that it doesn't stay out of kilter. So, yeah, definitely speak to them as well.

Katy: And just a kind of final question before we bring this to a close. What's the one thing that you wish you'd known about managing your finances when you first started working?

Marcus: Well, for me, when I first started working, which feels like a long time ago now, it's the budgeting piece. I did that far too late. I had too many, too many months, too many years of just spending, spending, spending until you get to a point where you think, actually, I have lost all control. And that's me, in financial services. So I think if I'd have known anything at the outset, I would have liked somebody to sit down with me and say, right, before we do anything else, let's map everything out, what comes in and what goes out, ensure hopefully that more comes in than goes out, and then how we use that, how we understand our benefits, how we understand all of those different deductions that we see every month to ensure that we start on the right foot. So we start with a little element of control and then everything else will take care of itself to a large degree.

Char: Yeah, absolutely. I think kind of that not burying your head in the sand, I know when I kind of came into employment, I was like, oh my God, adult money! I will not be checking my payslip. I won't even be calculating my bonus. Any money is money. I'll take it, I'll run with it. So actually taking the time to be really diligent. I think also recognising patterns. So thinking about if your mental health is low or any part of your health is struggling, sometimes that can have an impact. If you are someone that might emotionally spend or do that doom spending we spoke about earlier, just being a little bit aware about how where you're at emotionally might impact your finances. And feeling, like, I think something that I really enjoyed was feeling empowered to take control of my finances. I think I come from a family where it isn't spoken about loads. And especially as a woman, I think there's still a bit of a sense of having a kind of salary-based conversation. So the empowerment was really interesting for me to kind of change the script.

Katy: Thank you both and I think probably something that actually is not only when you first start, right, there's probably tips that we could take from that for every moment. But yeah, definitely resonates with me. I think, that moment I was lucky enough to go to university, but unfortunately after student loans became pretty big and it was quite exciting to suddenly have money but it does come at a time when you're paying for commuting suddenly you probably can't wear the same jeans that you found in Oxfam every single day and so your expenses are changing and it is really easy for that to get out of control.

Marcus: Definitely.

Katy: Well, that brings us to a close. We always finish our episodes by asking the same question of everybody, which I think you've been warned about, but if not, this is an exciting moment to see what you're going to say. So, what makes you feel empowered?

Char: I have been, I haven't known what to say to this, found it very hard. It's changed with the wind actually this week. So I think for me, it is quite work-y, but working in the well-being space makes you feel so empowered. How lucky I am to get to talk about this stuff on the daily, help people kind of empower themselves, give them the tools and the kind of equipment they need to look after themselves in any sense. So spiritual well-being, financial well-being, emotional well-being, whatever it is, it's an absolute honour, and that makes me feel really empowered.

Marcus: That's a lovely answer. For me, again, it's a bit work-y, but I've been doing this for a long time. As I mentioned right at the start, I've been doing, well, in the financial services industry for about 30 years now and I also mentioned in the podcast that I'm a purist, so this will probably come as no surprise when I say that for me, delivering financial well-being to the masses and helping people to engage with their finances is what gets me out of bed in the morning, quite frankly. That kind of purist thought that maybe somewhere in the distant past when we were chatting with an employee or I was delivering some financial guidance or whatever it may be, that that made a shift change in that person's life. And then when that person in 20, 30, 40 years time is sitting on a beach enjoying their retirement, thinking back to the day where they made that change for me is what gets me out of bed and what empowers me, for sure.

Katy: Brilliant. Well, thank you both for your time for those tips and for all of your insights. It's been a brilliant session.

Marcus and Char: Thank you, Katy.

Katy: So that brings us to a close and thank you also to our listeners for making it right to the end. Please do continue to stay tuned for our next episode.