Video transcript: Rethinking the architecture of government

Transcript

Rachel Taylor: For the public sector, transformation talk isn't new. Government departments, agencies and public services are constantly shape shifting to meet the public's evolving needs and to deliver new policies. But what does it take to do more than just transform? What does it take to be transformative? How can the public sector organise itself so that it's on the front foot, an agile network that's able to deliver sustainable outcomes and build public trust?

Gavin, in our Future of Government research programme, we argue that it will take a rethinking of the architecture of government. As someone who has worked at the very core of the architecture, can you walk us through what that means?

Lord Gavin Barwell: I've seen it from all different angles. I've worked as Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister in Downing Street, right at the heart of central government. And I've been an MP and a government minister, but also been a cabinet member in a in a large unitary local authority. So I've seen that architecture from multiple vantage points. What we mean by the architecture of government is the complex system of central government, the devolved administrations, combined authorities, local councils and the various bodies that deliver public services. And what we've been doing in the current round of research for Future of Government is talking to the people at the center of that delivery, those working across different parts of government and the public sector, as well as wider policy and think tank organisations, to gather their views on what's truly needed to drive pace in the transformation journey.

Rachel: We've had some fascinating roundtables, haven't we? And they've given us some great insight. What we've tried to do in these roundtables is focus on four areas. So let's talk a bit now about those areas and why they're important. So firstly, improving the user and citizen experience to make engagement more effective. Gavin, it will be great to hear your initial perspectives on that area.

Gavin: Yeah, I think there's lots that could be done to improve that. I mean, there I probably would go back to my experience as a local councillor. and one of the most common things that people contact the local council about, is when someone submits a planning application in their area, that they don't like. And the council writes around and says, let us have your views. And it's really just a formulaic exercise because the planning application has to be determined against the local planning policies. So doesn't really matter if 90 people are against and one's in favour if the application is consistent with planning policy, it has to be approved. So really, what local government should be doing is engaging with people when they're drawing up their local plans. But that's much harder to do and doesn't tend to happen. and that breeds frustration for people when they say, ‘well, look everyone in this area is against this planning application, why have you just agreed it?’

Rachel: Yeah, and I think the other thing that was really powerful in the conversation was thinking about the experience that people get in the private sector compared to the public sector, because actually their data is shared in a much more cohesive way across organisations and therefore they don't have to share their story often more than once. So I think it's a real challenge for citizens around getting them confident to share their data so they get a better service, but also getting, I guess, civil servants and public servants much better confident to use that data as well themselves.

Gavin: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Rachel: So I guess the other thing that takes us onto is what is the new deal? How can we think about working differently between central and local government to tackle some of the challenges we face as a country?

Gavin: Yeah, I think that we're one of the most centralised democracies in the world, and one of my experiences is that isn't just about the politicians at Westminster or Whitehall kind of holding on to power. It's quite deeply ingrained in our media and actually in the public as well. I remember a particular meeting in Number Ten where there was exasperation about a headline in one of our newspapers describing something as a postcode lottery, and it was the exact opposite of a lottery. It was the result of clear decisions that different people in different bits of the country had made to do things in different ways. It was conscious choice, but there's just a sort of hardwired into our kind of politics at every level, a sense that services should be the same everywhere.

Rachel: The other thing that was really fascinating so when we talked to local leaders actually, they were really keen to have different views. So one organisation was saying actually it doesn't really matter who does what, what structures we have. The other was felt very strongly that it did need to be in a certain way across the country exactly the same. So I think part of the I guess next steps and the recommendations that we've got is you need to bring local leaders along the journey of what, why do you choose to do things in a certain way and actually that it can be different or maybe setting a consistency and explaining why things should be the same.

Gavin: Yeah, I mean, have we got a mess of different structures in different parts of the country. or actually is that reflecting different needs in different cities?

Rachel: Some people like to mess, some people did not. I think it was quite it was quite.

Gavin: It was really, wasn't it.

Rachel: So I guess thinking about not just working centrally and locally, but a lot of the issues this country faces require different types of organisations coming together, so kind of cross organisationally, to tackle challenges. And there were some quite interesting things that came out of that.

Gavin: One thing that really caught my attention was actually there's some optimism on this one because we know we can do it. But the experience is we only really are able to do it either when there's a crisis - think pandemic or when you get a prime minister, say, who empowers one individual - think Louise Casey on troubled families - and everybody in the system knows that person's got prime ministerial authority to bang heads together and then it works. But the moment the crisis is over or that person disappears, everybody retreats back into their silos.

Rachel: And I think what was interesting is actually there was quite a consistency across the conversations about some of the topics where there might be a cohesive agreement about how to take things forward cross organisationally So economic growth was a theme that came up both in the central government, with the think tank community but also with local leaders. A real sense of actually putting maybe into statute a commitment to economic growth and to collaborate on local economic growth at a regional level was an example of, as you say, a case of taking something that’s happened maybe quite inconsistently at the moment and driving something to really deliver a different outcome for citizens.

Gavin: Yeah, I make no sense if you've got a national industrial strategy that allows a local plan that don't fit into that at all. So it's a classic example of what we are talking about. I think the final thing, which maybe draws it all together, which is, you know, you've got all these ideas of what you could do to improve the way these things work. But there's then a question about both capacity and capability in the public sector at the moment.

Rachel: Yeah. And I think like lots of different parts of the economy, the central government and local public service find it really difficult to hire and to retain talent. And I think what's really interesting is there's an opportunity in order to take advantage of the technology, the data, actually citizens want to be engaged. There's new things that can be done, but it's making sure, as you say, that actually the capability, capacity sits across the government and public sector in order to make the most of those opportunities. So I think it's worth thinking really carefully about how do you attract new types of skills into the government and public sector, but also how do you reskill civil servants, public servants who are really keen and eager to learn? But I do think without that shift and change, the advantages won't be taken and make the most of them.

Gavin: And civil service service is keen to this, I think. I mean, it's not an institution that needs to have this done to it. I think it recognises the need to have those new skills in the organisation.

Rachel: Exactly and in all the roundtables, there is real genuine energy and enthusiasm at all levels that we spoke to for investing in their own skills, both at the top of the organisation and actually to more junior levels in making the most of what's available. Thanks for watching.